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Author Topic: Wide Shallow Room for Rock Shows... PA Install?  (Read 5445 times)

Ryan O John

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Wide Shallow Room for Rock Shows... PA Install?
« on: February 18, 2014, 06:15:07 pm »

At most 40ft of coverage depth required...about 30ft coverage required horizontally out from the downstage edge of the stage.  Not enough vertical space for a legit array, nor do I really think it makes sense, unless someone can explain to me otherwise...

Looking at D&B Q10 pair per side, or L Arc II 3 per side...

SB28s, or similar...


Looking for something that can put on a 'full on rock show.'

Suggestions?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 06:19:45 pm by Ryan O John »
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Ryan John
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Brad Weber

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Re: Wide Shallow Room for Rock Shows... PA Install?
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2014, 09:22:56 am »

How wide is the room?  Where and how high can you fly the speakers?  Do you need coverage to the sides of the stage?  It would really help to have pictures or a floor plan showing the stage and audience area.  It's a bit hard to address specific products without knowing the dimensions involved.
 
What do you mean by a "legit array"?  Do you have to meet riders and if so, are there particular brands or products that are typically acceptable or not?  Do you have a budget?
 
Will you have amplifier channels and processing so that each box in an array can be processed and amplified independently or were you thinking all the speakers in an array on one channel?  A simple left and right array configuration in a wide, shallow room may result one box in an array having to 'throw' much further than others and thus their ideally being independently processed and amplified.
 
In very wide, shallow rooms it is often difficult to get proper stereo coverage where each speaker or array actually provides good coverage of the entire listener area by itself from just a single left and right speaker or array.  Would a mono speaker system be a viable option?
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Ryan O John

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Re: Wide Shallow Room for Rock Shows... PA Install?
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2014, 09:39:12 am »

How wide is the room?  Where and how high can you fly the speakers?  Do you need coverage to the sides of the stage?  It would really help to have pictures or a floor plan showing the stage and audience area.  It's a bit hard to address specific products without knowing the dimensions involved.
lets say the stage is 24ft wide, the room is 75ft wide, 35ft deep.
there is only about 13ft of vertical space, and really only 3ft before you're in sight lines.

Quote

What do you mean by a "legit array"?  Do you have to meet riders and if so, are there particular brands or products that are typically acceptable or not?  Do you have a budget?
When I say legit array, I mean any hang of substantial length, since there's only about 3ft of vertical space that can be realistically used.

Quote

Will you have amplifier channels and processing so that each box in an array can be processed and amplified independently or were you thinking all the speakers in an array on one channel?  A simple left and right array configuration in a wide, shallow room may result one box in an array having to 'throw' much further than others and thus their ideally being independently processed and amplified.
 
In very wide, shallow rooms it is often difficult to get proper stereo coverage where each speaker or array actually provides good coverage of the entire listener area by itself from just a single left and right speaker or array.  Would a mono speaker system be a viable option?
Amps will be purchased with the speaker system, so that's entirely variable (the stuff I've suggested already has to run with D12s or LA8 amps, so those are part of the buy).  There is a budget, but it's not really relevant, as I'd just like some ideas for systems that you guys may suggest for a wide shallow space, WITHOUT budget in mind. 


Thanks so much!
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Ryan John
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Wide Shallow Room for Rock Shows... PA Install?
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2014, 08:19:34 pm »

lets say the stage is 24ft wide, the room is 75ft wide, 35ft deep.
there is only about 13ft of vertical space, and really only 3ft before you're in sight lines.
When I say legit array, I mean any hang of substantial length, since there's only about 3ft of vertical space that can be realistically used.

So why do you think you need a "hang of substantial length" for a room that is 35' deep and 75' wide??????
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Ivan Beaver
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Re: Wide Shallow Room for Rock Shows... PA Install?
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2014, 09:02:53 pm »

So why do you think you need a "hang of substantial length" for a room that is 35' deep and 75' wide??????

Hey, Ivan!!!!

How's it hangin'???
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Wide Shallow Room for Rock Shows... PA Install?
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2014, 07:46:31 am »

Hey, Ivan!!!!

How's it hangin'???
Hopefully by aircraft cable attached to solid structure above.  wink wink nod nod--------
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Ryan O John

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Re: Wide Shallow Room for Rock Shows... PA Install?
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2014, 10:32:14 am »

So why do you think you need a "hang of substantial length" for a room that is 35' deep and 75' wide??????

Because I've never heard any "line array" under 3 boxes that sounded remotely good? 
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Ryan John
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Re: Wide Shallow Room for Rock Shows... PA Install?
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2014, 01:21:17 pm »

Because I've never heard any "line array" under 3 boxes that sounded remotely good?

Sure.  But there are good sounding smaller rigs out there.  I hear a LOT of line arrays that sound like s*** even though there are enough boxes.  It's as easy or easier to set up a LA rig wrong as it is to set up a trap-box rig wrong.  So I'd not discount OE when evaluation rig performance.  In music styles, the top 5% of each genre "sounds good".  I suspect that the cream rises to the top regardless of subject.

LABster TJ Cornish has gone through the smaller, true line array stuff very carefully and is now using a JBL rig which sounds very, very good and would likely be a viable option for your application.
Perhaps he'll chime in.  I'm sorry I don't remember the model #'s off the top of my head.
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Samuel Rees

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Wide Shallow Room for Rock Shows... PA Install?
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2014, 02:31:58 pm »


Not enough vertical space for a legit array, nor do I really think it makes sense

Responses to this so far seem sort of confusing. The forum spends a lot confronting people who assume they need a line array when it may be inappropriate because they would really have merely a dash... And this poor fella walks in saying what is essentially Danley's greatest dream, "I don't want a dash array - a strong point source makes more sense in this room", and the topic turns back to line arrays. How did the forum not pounce on the occasion to talk about ARC, Danley and D&B C instead?

EDIT: Not trying to start an argument. I mean this in this best spirit of constructive conversation and steering the thread in a useful way to the OP.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2014, 02:36:00 pm by Samuel Rees »
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Wide Shallow Room for Rock Shows... PA Install? Put another way
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2014, 05:07:03 pm »

Because I've never heard any "line array" under 3 boxes that sounded remotely good?
Let's put it another way.

Why do you think a line array is the proper choice for a room that is 35' deep and wide?
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Brad Weber

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Re: Wide Shallow Room for Rock Shows... PA Install?
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2014, 08:57:47 am »

lets say the stage is 24ft wide, the room is 75ft wide, 35ft deep.
there is only about 13ft of vertical space, and really only 3ft before you're in sight lines.
So the speakers apparently have to be between 10' A.F.F. and 13' A.F.F., which when you add in their being aimed down toward the audience and any rigging would seem to limit the height of box that can be used and possibly require a horizontal format box.
 
Between that height and an audience area that is apparently over twice as wide as it is deep, you seem likely to be hard pressed to get good coverage from just a single left and right array location.  Would you consider other alternatives such as a mono system with multiple speakers each covering a defined listener area?
 
Are the subs also going to be flown or are they being ground stacked somewhere?

When I say legit array, I mean any hang of substantial length, since there's only about 3ft of vertical space that can be realistically used.
So you apprently meant "line array" rather than "legit array" as horizontal arrays of 'point source' boxes are certainly a legitimate approach for situations like yours.

There is a budget, but it's not really relevant, as I'd just like some ideas for systems that you guys may suggest for a wide shallow space, WITHOUT budget in mind.
If there is a budget then that is typically a major system design factor.  You don't have to give a specific number but offering at least some idea of the budget may help keep people from investing their time developing and presenting ideas that are not feasible due to a budget that was known but not shared.  Perhaps it is as simple as verifying if the d&b Q series and L-Acoustics ARCS II mentioned are wishful thinking or realistic options within the budget.
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Doug Fowler

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Re: Wide Shallow Room for Rock Shows... PA Install?
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2014, 10:38:59 am »

At most 40ft of coverage depth required...about 30ft coverage required horizontally out from the downstage edge of the stage.  Not enough vertical space for a legit array, nor do I really think it makes sense, unless someone can explain to me otherwise...

Looking at D&B Q10 pair per side, or L Arc II 3 per side...

SB28s, or similar...


Looking for something that can put on a 'full on rock show.'

Suggestions?

Buddy Guy's in Chicago is similar.   Wide stage, wide room, short throw, coverage required on sides of stage.

They went with PS-15s hung across the front of the stage. I'll guess it's a mono mix. The PS-15s appear to be spaced so that coverage patterns converge properly (disclaimer: I have not heard it, just seen it).   The asymmetric HF device could be an advantage here.

PS-15s on the outside service those areas. 

You'll likely use the PA to fill in what can't compete with loud amps and drums.

Q10 is a perfectly good choice.  Model it to make sure you don't have coverage holes up close.  You may need something to fill in the corners, as well. 

On a budget, EV QRX 212 is available in a horizontal format, and has an asymmetric HF, although different from the PS series.  Horizontal 212 has HF in the center BTW.
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John durisko

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Re: Wide Shallow Room for Rock Shows... PA Install?
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2014, 06:12:48 pm »

Martin audio makes a H3H+ that is a 70H x 40V horizontal format 15" design. Sounds like four of these and S218 subs would fit most, if not all of your requirements.

http://www.martin-audio.com/products/H3H+.asp




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Re: Wide Shallow Room for Rock Shows... PA Install?
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2014, 06:12:48 pm »


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