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[Lee Douglas]

It's true that aiming of your speaker system is extremely important, but putting out high quality, well directed sound into a room awash in volume/reflections from onstage is an exercise in futility.

Get the stage volume under control first...

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  I was trying say to address the stage volume (in agreement with TJ) and then address the coverage of the speakers, before going after physical fixes for bad room acoustics. 

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  I was trying say to address the stage volume (in agreement with TJ) and then address the coverage of the speakers, before going after physical fixes for bad room acoustics.

No problem, I just wanted it clear to the OP that without control of the sound radiating from the stage, all other "fixes" will be either less- or ineffective.

[Lee Douglas]

No problem, I just wanted it clear to the OP that without control of the sound radiating from the stage, all other "fixes" will be either less- or ineffective.

Definitely.  Not to mention the fact that those first two suggestions can be implemented with little financial risk other than cooperation and time.  And let's face it, if one can't afford that, there is no way acoustic room treatment is going to be in your budget!

[Brayden Cohen]

  Thanks for the suggestions everyone!!!!! I attached a picture of the sanctuary!

Ok So my church is located in Brooklyn New York. My ceilings are about about 35' to 40' high and its more of a rectangle then a perfect square. My Drums are in a 5 piece ISO shield.


@TJ I am addressing the stage volume by implementing and DIY IEM system to my musicians. As for the organ the modifications were made well before i became and organist and involved in the music department. So i am not bragging i was just listing my situation so people had full scope of what i am dealing with and give me advice accordingly.

I am going to also try and speak to the guitar player angle the cabinet up and try and keep the stage volume low.

SIDEBAR any suggestions on good spl meters?

[Brad Weber]

I would have to agree though that your biggest issues are stage noise and then acoustics.
Perdue is amazing in what they do, they are my go to acousticians.

Perdue Acoustics is not an acoustician, they are a manufacturer of acoustical products.  They offer some very nice products and I'm sure they will be happy to suggest how to apply their products to any situation but they are also likely to be basing any recommendations solely on using their products.
 
One thing on acoustics is that when making recommendations many look solely at Reverberation Time or RT60 and adding absorption.  While RT60 is a factor, it is just one posssible factor and not necessarily directly applicable to most real world spaces.  Factors such as the locations and output of speakers or other sound sources, flutter echo, congregational interaction, etc. may affect both the type and location of treatments an actual acoustician would recommend regarding room acoustics.  In fact a true acoustician may also at least touch on other issues such as ambient noise levels and sound isolation from noise sources outside the space (or of other spaces from the space being considered).
 
I agree with the suggestions that if you have excessive stage noise levels then reducing those is typically going to be the most effective first step.  Until you get the stage levels under control then you are going to have a challenge.
 
Having an amp with twice the power for your organ is a 3dB increase in the potential output, which is in turn generally considered a just noticeable increase in perceived volume.  I think there may be several items where you may not really be getting the dramatic difference you think you are and that could easily be cut back without having as significant a negative effect as you might think they would.
 
For a low cost, general purpose Sound Level Meter, the Radio Shack meter is really sort of the standard.  Galaxy Audio, Extech, etc. also offer some low cost Sound Level Meters.  Those entry level SLMs are usually fine for getting a general idea of level or comparing one service to another.  If you want to get to where you have some known level of accuracy you probably want to look for a Type 2 (Type 1 meters are overkill for most field situations) rated meter while if you want absolute accuracy you also want a calibrator that allows calibrating the meter before measurements and verifying it is still calibrated after measurements.  You can also get into whether you want a meter that will provide statistical data or record levels.  There are some reasonably priced Type 2 rated meters out there but you can easily spend thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars for a fully featured Sound Level Meter.
 
One thing I noted in the pictures is that what appear to be the main speakers look to be aimed straight out.  If that is a true assumption then that is probably not helping matters and as Lee mentioned, you want the output of the speakers directed at the listeners and not at walls or places other than at the listeners.  Adding to that, while the LA325 is a good speaker for some applications, the multiple drivers and small horn result in rather limited pattern control, so perhaps not the best choice where pattern control may be desired such as in trying to limit coverage to the audience area in a challenging acoustical environment.

[Jeff Carter]

Ok So my church is located in Brooklyn New York. My ceilings are about about 35' to 40' high and its more of a rectangle then a perfect square. My Drums are in a 5 piece ISO shield.

I don't see any absorptive panels around the ISO shield. It's probably keeping some drum bleed away from mics on stage but doing next to nothing to reduce drum volume in the room. If you have to add drums to the monitor wedges, you may actually be adding drum volume overall.

I've had success with the Galaxy CM-130 as a low-cost meter. However, each range is only good over a 30 dB span so I do find myself switching ranges a lot.

[Frank DeWitt]

You can find out for sure if your problem is stage volume, or the room by playing a CD of similar music through your system at the same level as your WT. 

CD Good,  Stage volume problem
CD bad  Room problem.

BTW you ask about a SPL meter.  You can get a set of apps from
http://www.studiosixdigital.com/audiotools/
It has a number of meters in it including one that records the levels for your entire service and gives the peak and average.   There is also a great app (Speech intelligibility module)  that will give you a reading on the intelligibility of your system in your room. STIPA.  Nothing beats a well trained person, but it is a handy tool to start with.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

You can find out for sure if your problem is stage volume, or the room by playing a CD of similar music through your system at the same level as your WT. 

CD Good,  Stage volume problem
CD bad  Room problem.

BTW you ask about a SPL meter.  You can get a set of apps from
http://www.studiosixdigital.com/audiotools/
It has a number of meters in it including one that records the levels for your entire service and gives the peak and average.   There is also a great app (Speech intelligibility module)  that will give you a reading on the intelligibility of your system in your room. STIPA.  Nothing beats a well trained person, but it is a handy tool to start with.

Great suggestion, Frank.  I would just add to this that if one needs to venture into any "room treatment" that you can use BOTH absorption AND diffusion to effect improvements.  If reflections predominate in the problem department, simply adding some physical contours to any large, flat surface areas can help.  If reverberation predominates, then some absorption may need to be added.  In the end a combination of both is likely, but often diffusion is my first choice as it doesn't mess so much with  the overall sound spectrum.  A lot of absorption can kill the top end and make a room dull and lifeless.

[Jeff Carter]

Great suggestion, Frank.  I would just add to this that if one needs to venture into any "room treatment" that you can use BOTH absorption AND diffusion to effect improvements.  If reflections predominate in the problem department, simply adding some physical contours to any large, flat surface areas can help.  If reverberation predominates, then some absorption may need to be added.  In the end a combination of both is likely, but often diffusion is my first choice as it doesn't mess so much with  the overall sound spectrum.  A lot of absorption can kill the top end and make a room dull and lifeless.

Diffusion's also a better solution in rooms used for congregational singing. Singing in a room with too much absorption just starts to feel really weird.

Another fun way to gauge if there's too much stage volume: Just pull the main fader all the way to the bottom. If things don't get a LOT quieter, you've got a problem.

[Brayden Cohen]

Thanks guys for the suggestions i'm gonna play some music and see if i get a different result, and im also gonna try pulling the mains down during service and seeing if i can hear a significant volume cut.

I was considering implement the Behringer PowerPlay into the system to offer the musicians their own mix. I have a analogue console so correct me if I'm wrong, if i get the P16i and direct out the most important 16 channels and then get p16m for every musician they would have access to make their own mix right?

[ProSoundWeb Community]