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Author Topic: Why not Aux Controlled Subs?  (Read 29056 times)

Samuel Rees

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Re: Why not Aux Controlled Subs?
« Reply #90 on: January 22, 2014, 01:03:05 pm »


I much prefer AUX subs instead of BUS subs due to issues involving stereo sources.  This allows me to sum the stereo sources at -6 and keep the proper proportion.

Can you explain this phenomenon in a little more detail?
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Greg_Cameron

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Re: Why not Aux Controlled Subs?
« Reply #91 on: January 22, 2014, 01:05:44 pm »

Can you explain this phenomenon in a little more detail?

If you have 2 channels of identical signal content sum, you get a +6dB boost in level relative to a single channel. With aux subs, you can dial back 3dB of sub send on each channel to maintain the gain structure without the bump. On a non-variable bus send, you can't do that.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Why not Aux Controlled Subs?
« Reply #92 on: January 22, 2014, 01:43:14 pm »

i have a 3 way pa speaker system. 18" woofers , 12" mids , 2" horns. the system is tri-amped. crossover points are 130hz and 1200hz using a 24db/oct electronic. if i run the 18" woofers through an aux feed tell me how thats going to make the system sound better or different than running everthing through the main out ? it doesnt make any sense. last night i connected my 3 way home system to my mackie and did the woofers on the aux. no difference and when i pushed the volume up i had move 2 faders at once instead of one.

You are using your 18" elements as LF *and* subs.  This works better when the system LF is separate from the subs, Jeff.

The issue is how much "gack" we send to the subs, mostly bleed into microphones that a typical console's 80Hz channel HPF isn't going do much for.  Desks that have sweepable HPF do better, but not every mixer has the same HPF slope (Yamaha had a pretty gentle slope, for example, while Digidesign's is pretty steep).  The other source of sub-gack can come from microphone proximity effect, plosives in the vocals, etc.

I don't think the home theater test was a good one because of the highly manipulated and processed sound track.  You don't have open microphones and a band wailing away behind the vox.

Like I said earlier, this is one tool in the kit.  As the 'system guy' I'm most often asked to configure our systems for left, right, subs, front fills.  Only had a couple of "full range Left & Right" BEs last year.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Why not Aux Controlled Subs?
« Reply #93 on: January 22, 2014, 01:48:44 pm »

My experience is similar to Luke's.

Here are my thoughts on it.

I much prefer AUX subs instead of BUS subs due to issues involving stereo sources.  This allows me to sum the stereo sources at -6 and keep the proper proportion.

My favorite though is the variable mono bus on the MIDAS PRO consoles.  Best of both worlds.

When using BUS subs you also have to be careful that you set nominal based on a mono channel source when configuring and aligning the system.

Otherwise I tend to keep my bass and kick at nominal in the subs.  I will sometimes add an appropriate vocal or key or acoustic guitar at a level less than nominal every once in a while.
   

For toms, I may add a bit of sub to the high tom, a bit more to the middle tom and set the floor tom at nominal. I know this is not proper but it can be a quick place to end up if the tom sound terrible on their own and you have no time to do a proper soundcheck and apply EQ (or yell at the drummer.)

When the band takes a break and the singer plays an acoustic song, add the guitar to the subs. Maybe the vocal too. But you don't need it there with the rest of the band playing, channels need to mesh with the entire soundscape not just sound good individually.

For the odd day that I am mixing on a club PA or on another company's system and not my own, having a discrete sub send instead of just LR is crucial.  I absolutely understand why artist techs ask for it.  On one three-club mini-tour I was FOH for an artist, all three of the clubs had presets with the subs much more haystacked than even I like.  At one club I had to turn down the subs 12db.  Much easier with a discrete send.

Lastly, my opinion is that unless your subs are crossed over at 100hz or below (and ideally below) I wouldn't bother with aux subs.

Just my take on it.

Jason

By using the techniques in BOLD, Jason also relies on the channel strip EQ to shape tone rather than the subwoofer send level.  I bet his board mix recordings sound better as a result.

The other stuff in his post is spot on, too.  If it "wooshed" anyone, re-read his post until your hair stops moving. ;)
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Samuel Rees

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Re: Why not Aux Controlled Subs?
« Reply #94 on: January 22, 2014, 02:42:24 pm »


If you have 2 channels of identical signal content sum, you get a +6dB boost in level relative to a single channel. With aux subs, you can dial back 3dB of sub send on each channel to maintain the gain structure without the bump. On a non-variable bus send, you can't do that.

Do any consoles compensate for that or panning and etc? Or do we assume this is always true?
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Patrick Tracy

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Re: Why not Aux Controlled Subs?
« Reply #95 on: January 22, 2014, 04:04:23 pm »

Do any consoles compensate for that or panning and etc? Or do we assume this is always true?

Look up "pan law".

[Edit] I might be making an incorrect assumption about your question. Sorry if that's the case.

Jeff Bankston

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Re: Why not Aux Controlled Subs?
« Reply #96 on: January 22, 2014, 04:22:10 pm »

You are using your 18" elements as LF *and* subs.  This works better when the system LF is separate from the subs, Jeff.


I don't think the home theater test was a good one because of the highly manipulated and processed sound track.  You don't have open microphones and a band wailing away behind the vox.

wokrs better when the lf system is seperate from the subs. > thats was what i was thinking. when we start playing again in a few months i will try using the aux for the low end.

home theater not a good test > actually those are for listening to music only and so the gf can play it loud when she pole dances. i still listen to the tv through the tv speakers. the home/rehersal speakers are 15"-10"-2". the play out pa speakers are 18"-12"-2". but i get what your saying. yeah i'll check it out. 
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Scott Olewiler

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Re: Why not Aux Controlled Subs?
« Reply #97 on: January 22, 2014, 09:02:48 pm »

http://www.thebuttkicker.com/pro-audio

I knew someone would link to that. Being a non-drummer I still can't wrap my head around someone needs to feel something that's connected to their foot or that they can't hear it. I played for 30 years and never once worked with a drummer who needed to hear himself in a monitor until I started doing sound work.
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Greg_Cameron

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Re: Why not Aux Controlled Subs?
« Reply #98 on: January 22, 2014, 11:09:48 pm »

I knew someone would link to that. Being a non-drummer I still can't wrap my head around someone needs to feel something that's connected to their foot or that they can't hear it. I played for 30 years and never once worked with a drummer who needed to hear himself in a monitor until I started doing sound work.

As a drummer, I never really understood the "need" for a buttkicker. I can see the desire for a large drum fill to get bass guitar solid when you're kit is slightly behind the back line. But growing up touring as a punk rock drummer, I was lucky to have a single crappy wedge in most clubs. So though I provide a big fill for other drummers, I don't really need one myself in most cases. Of course, the lack of having a good monitor and playing with foam earplugs for the past 35 years might explain why i hit super hard and play with 3S sticks (as big as they make them). Maybe if I had a good fill and a Buttkicker all those years, I'd play with smaller sticks and a lot softer instead ;)
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Jeff Bankston

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Re: Why not Aux Controlled Subs?
« Reply #99 on: January 23, 2014, 05:15:01 am »

i never have my drums in my monitor. if i cant figure out how to hit and what i'm doing after 44 years if playing i should quit ! years ago i learned that none of the guys in Deep Purple used monitors. i dont need a butt kick either. i know what my feet are doing and have recorded almost all gigs and practices over the years. i never kept them after listening to them and used the same cassette tape and kept recording over it until it woe owt(wore out)!
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Re: Why not Aux Controlled Subs?
« Reply #99 on: January 23, 2014, 05:15:01 am »


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