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Author Topic: LED Lighting Power  (Read 18177 times)

Cailen Waddell

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Re: LED Lighting Power
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2014, 09:38:04 pm »


generally speaking the cost savings with LEDs does not come from energy savings in terms of a venue installation. There are some energy savings, but the big money savings comes from consumables and maintenance.

With an example like theatrical house lights, the cost to replace a $2 light bulb is fairly significant if it requires scaffolding, minimum labor calls, or other extensive procedures. With LEDs requiring significantly less replacements and maintenance, the savings in this area is significant over energy savings.

Switching a conventional wash fixture (say a 575w S4 par) out for an automated LED wash fixture (ie. a mac 301 at 350w) will produce a significant long term cost savings in labor and consumables, as you've eliminated the costs of gel, lamps and labor to refocus it for every show. Long term, this will produce a higher return than the minimal energy savings (225w/hr of use, at $0.15/kwh the savings is slightly above $0.03) could hope to achieve. This is assuming that both fixtures are used for the same amount of time at full output.

This thread on Control booth has some good points regarding the actual electrical savings for LED products, including a link to a very well written article.

I think it is unrealistic for most people to do a one to one trade off consideration.  I also think labor and consumables are highly variable depending on venue. Everyone uses the electricity and it's a compelling argument. 

Beaides, no TD is going to give up the lamp and consumables budget, instead they will spend it on the extra dmx cable, or egg crate Oliver they find they need.  Another small opto, etc

I think it is more likely to say, an ETC d40 vivid is going to replace 3 s4 pars at 575w each in red, blue, and white.  The d40 is around 130w IF all the LEDs are at full, rarely the case if it is a back light unit, but let's assume it anyway.  Now the pars consume 1725 watts total, and in a busy space might average 2000 hours each a year.  The d40 now is around 10% of the original power.  Our power is $.10 per kW hour, so the pars cost $345 a year to run, the d40 around $26 a year.  A $319 savings a year.  The 3 pars cost about $350 new.  The d40 about $1500. The different is $1150. $1150/$319 (the power savings) a year, and we are cost recovered in 3.6 years.  Add in an extra $50 a year on lamps for the pars and it gets better.

I think the labor argument is incredibly dependant on circumstances.  In our 450 seat proscenium house, if a lamp goes out, the crew changes it and it costs is nothing additional but the lamp costs.

It bears repeating what I said earlier in the thread. In a NEW venue, the savings on dimming, HVAC sizing, and electrical infrastructure will more than cover the cost of led fixtures.  24 20a relays on a lyntec panel versus 96 2.4kw etc dimmers, plus 24 houselight dimmers.  A 400 or 600a service for the dimmers, a 150a service for the relays. 24 x 3 x 75' of 12 gauge thhn, vs 120 x 3x 75', less conduit, less labor, etc. On our 200 seat theater that we just got a CO on, we figure (working with the contractors and construction estimators, the construction alone came in $100k cheaper than if we had done dimmers and conventional electrical, not including HVAC sizing. That's a lot of LED fixtures.  A whole lot.
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: LED Lighting Power
« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2014, 11:36:14 pm »

It bears repeating what I said earlier in the thread. In a NEW venue, the savings on dimming, HVAC sizing, and electrical infrastructure will more than cover the cost of led fixtures.

That makes me wonder about the true cost of retrofit. If LED represents a significant reduction in HVAC load, is there a possibility of the A/C being oversized after the retrofit, resulting in more dramatic temperature swings resulting in occupant discomfort, and decreased life of the mechanical equipment due to short-cycling? Will it be necessary to retrofit the HVAC as well when retrofitting the lighting?

I'm no expert in HVAC, but I've heard of people having problems when the air conditioning is oversized.
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Cailen Waddell

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Re: LED Lighting Power
« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2014, 11:44:16 pm »

I'm no HVAC expert either, but I am going to say it's not a problem most of the time. 

At one of our venues, the ahu that feeds the theater is supplied from a central plant making hot and cold water and has variable speed supply and return fans, variable outside air dampers and variable valves on the heating and cooling coils. This allows the air handler to essentially size itself to the load, putting out air and a variable temperature and velocity.  As long as the unit isn't too small for the load, then it's fine?  That's my opinion. We normally only have 2 degree swings as we cycle on and off, and going from empty to a full occupant load in extreme weather with doors open may result in a 4 degree swing before retuning to set point.   

If it is a small venue with a residential
Type unit, it might be different. 
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James Feenstra

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Re: LED Lighting Power
« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2014, 10:08:00 am »

Besides, no TD is going to give up the lamp and consumables budget, instead they will spend it on the extra dmx cable, or egg crate Oliver they find they need.  Another small opto, etc
it may not be the TD's choice in that if a retrofit to all LED lamps is done.

Quote
I think it is more likely to say, an ETC d40 vivid is going to replace 3 s4 pars at 575w each in red, blue, and white.  The d40 is around 130w IF all the LEDs are at full, rarely the case if it is a back light unit, but let's assume it anyway.  Now the pars consume 1725 watts total, and in a busy space might average 2000 hours each a year.  The d40 now is around 10% of the original power.  Our power is $.10 per kW hour, so the pars cost $345 a year to run, the d40 around $26 a year.  A $319 savings a year.  The 3 pars cost about $350 new.  The d40 about $1500. The different is $1150. $1150/$319 (the power savings) a year, and we are cost recovered in 3.6 years.  Add in an extra $50 a year on lamps for the pars and it gets better.
Agreed. 1 LED for 3 conventionals is typically a safe bet when dealing with on stage lighting, although the main cost savings for LED retrofits is going to be in something like house lights where a 1 to 3 replacement would result in severely reduced light levels over an audience and may not comply with local fire codes/etc. Since these lights are generally replaced on a 1:1 basis the energy savings will be much smaller.

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I think the labor argument is incredibly dependent on circumstances.  In our 450 seat proscenium house, if a lamp goes out, the crew changes it and it costs is nothing additional but the lamp costs.
It's very venue dependent, again my argument mainly applies to house lights, as they're not always the most accessible things to get to.
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Re: LED Lighting Power
« Reply #53 on: January 09, 2014, 10:08:00 am »


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