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[chris broadway]

Current state
1) Cluster of three EVF-1122S/94 (2 way speakers) in center of room
2) One sub on each side of room (about 17 yards away from cluster but in line with them)
3) R/L EVF in cluster powered by a single Crown CTS 600
4) Center EVF powered by dedicated Crown CTS 600
5) Pretty sure the subs have their own dedicated Crown CTS 600
6) EVF speakers in cluster are NOT running in bi-amp mode and ARE using their own passive crossover (full range mode)
7) Amps are connected to a DBX-260.

Problems
1) cluster speakers high and mids are to loud and there doesn't seem to be the needed lows
2) hot and cold spots all over the room
3) sides have more bass while middle has more mid and high
4) front is 5-10 db more (depending on how full the room is) from the rear (about 35 yards from front to rear)
5) massive bass "swells" in the rear of the room

Solution direction I am leaning towards
1) Stop using the EVF passive crossover and use the DBX-260 active crossover to separate correct freqs for the subs, woofers, and highs
2) Run the EVF cluster speakers in bi-amp mode and have an amp for the 3 woofers and another amp for 3 highs
3) try to use delay from the DBX to fill voids and have a more uniform sound (not sure if this is possible if the same amp is powering all three highs and another powering all three lows)
4) reset the DBX-260 and run through system setup, do a new gain structure, and re eq


does this sound feasible?

[Jason Lucas]

2) One sub on each side of room (about 17 yards away from cluster but in line with them)

I'm not really qualified to give you advice on speaker system setup, but this point caught my attention.

You may be a victim of "power alley": http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/in_search_of_the_power_alley/

That can happen when subs are split up.

[Tim McCulloch]

Current state
1) Cluster of three EVF-1122S/94 (2 way speakers) in center of room
2) One sub on each side of room (about 17 yards away from cluster but in line with them)
3) R/L EVF in cluster powered by a single Crown CTS 600
4) Center EVF powered by dedicated Crown CTS 600
5) Pretty sure the subs have their own dedicated Crown CTS 600
6) EVF speakers in cluster are NOT running in bi-amp mode and ARE using their own passive crossover (full range mode)
7) Amps are connected to a DBX-260.

Problems
1) cluster speakers high and mids are to loud and there doesn't seem to be the needed lows
2) hot and cold spots all over the room
3) sides have more bass while middle has more mid and high
4) front is 5-10 db more (depending on how full the room is) from the rear (about 35 yards from front to rear)
5) massive bass "swells" in the rear of the room

Solution direction I am leaning towards
1) Stop using the EVF passive crossover and use the DBX-260 active crossover to separate correct freqs for the subs, woofers, and highs
2) Run the EVF cluster speakers in bi-amp mode and have an amp for the 3 woofers and another amp for 3 highs
3) try to use delay from the DBX to fill voids and have a more uniform sound (not sure if this is possible if the same amp is powering all three highs and another powering all three lows)
4) reset the DBX-260 and run through system setup, do a new gain structure, and re eq


does this sound feasible?

Hi Chris-

I'm presuming "broadway" is your real last name... if it's not, fix that now.

I'd start by turning off the amp for the center box of the 3 speaker cluster.  Play some pink noise and see what you think of both coverage and tonality.  For more listening enjoyment, turn the L/R off and the center back on, repeat the test.  Do it both ways with pink and music; pink is much more revealing.

Without moving speakers around, this can give you some insight into problems 1 and 2.  Problem 3 is most likely from the physical location of the subs relative to each and the side walls of the room.  They're about 100' apart and that is too far to create a power alley that Jason suggests and is why there is less subbage in the middle, not more.  #4 is probably normal - the inverse square law says SPL will drop 6dB with every doubling of distance from the source.  #5 is likely an architectural issue/speaker placement interaction.  Probably not fixable with electronics.

Bi-amping will not, in and of itself, help your situation.

That all said, it sounds like you're trying to cover a big room that is both wide and deep relative to the speaker installation.  How old is the existing installation and what is your role in the design, maintenance and operation of it?

[chris broadway]

@ Tim...yep, that's the real last name. Also I just updated my profile with the full first name to be in compliance with rules.

I like that idea about shutting down the center speaker.  Having it not cancel the R and L may decrease the dead spots and cancelation and improve the listening experience.  Originally the subs were to be a cluster in the middle under the stairs leading to the stage. But the stage is about 2 inches to low.  Hopefully we can get the subs there eventually.  I am thinking about sound absorption panels on the back wall to help decrease the bass "woo woo" swell.  Thoughts?  You say bi-amping won't fix the issues, but do you think it is better than running full range? A lot of posts say full range bad, bi amp better.  Thoughts?

The room is a worship center at church and it is deep and wide (guessing sits 350).  I think two clusters would have been great, but assume it was financial reasons that led to only one.  I was not there for the installation and I think it was about 4 years ago.  I have taken over the sound engineering recently and trying to use my limited knowledge and budget to maximize results.  Thanks.

[Tom Young]

From what you have provided, it is apparent that:

1. You have the wrong model EV loudspeakers. You should be using 40 or 60 degree (Horizontal) models, not 90-degree. You will never get these 3 ldspkrs to perform well together.

2. You have just enough power for the center box if the amp is run in bridged mode (600W).

3. You lack power for the outer boxes and for the subwoofers.

4. Changing to active crossover (biamping) is not recommended. Applying EV's recommended settings to a 3d party DSP cannot be done accurately. The passive crossovers are probably well-designed and at this point your problems elsewhere are far greater than anything accomplished with active crossovers.

I recommend that you find a qualified system designer/installer with appropriate skillset and test gear (including modern-day complex measurement) to come in, review the system "design", determine that the drivers (and passive crossovers) in the 3 fullrange ldspkrs are all working and that they are in correct/same polarity. Then see if you can improve coverage by removing one or two ldspkrs or re-installing them so that one is assigned for "long throw" and is on separate amp and DSP channels. Correct the power amp discrepancies.

Do not bother with simple panels in the rear for LF treatment. They will not work. In your case, correcting the loudspeaker system design and then optimizing the system may reduce your coverage and hot-spot problems and not require acoustic treatment.

[John Halliburton]

This is really the origins of the term, "Cluster f*ck". 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Great advice so far.  Other quick things you might try are:

Pull the subs down to the center as close to the original location that is too short, hook them up there temporarily, and see how the bass coverage hopefully improves.  Have someone from the church elders/leadership there to hear the results(if improved).

If you can, you might disconnect the center speaker in the center cluster, and have a listen.  Then try it the opposite way, turn the two outer cabinets off and just listen to a single cabinet in the center.  Then add in the R/L clusters and compare.  Are all three L/C/R clusters the configuration of three 1122?

As Tom says, the system needs to be evaluated and revised by someone with experience in this type of install.

Best regards,

John

[Jonathan Kok]

Current state
1) Cluster of three EVF-1122S/94 (2 way speakers) in center of room
2) One sub on each side of room (about 17 yards away from cluster but in line with them)
3) R/L EVF in cluster powered by a single Crown CTS 600
4) Center EVF powered by dedicated Crown CTS 600
5) Pretty sure the subs have their own dedicated Crown CTS 600
6) EVF speakers in cluster are NOT running in bi-amp mode and ARE using their own passive crossover (full range mode)
7) Amps are connected to a DBX-260.

Problems
1) cluster speakers high and mids are to loud and there doesn't seem to be the needed lows
2) hot and cold spots all over the room
3) sides have more bass while middle has more mid and high
4) front is 5-10 db more (depending on how full the room is) from the rear (about 35 yards from front to rear)
5) massive bass "swells" in the rear of the room

Solution direction I am leaning towards
1) Stop using the EVF passive crossover and use the DBX-260 active crossover to separate correct freqs for the subs, woofers, and highs
2) Run the EVF cluster speakers in bi-amp mode and have an amp for the 3 woofers and another amp for 3 highs
3) try to use delay from the DBX to fill voids and have a more uniform sound (not sure if this is possible if the same amp is powering all three highs and another powering all three lows)
4) reset the DBX-260 and run through system setup, do a new gain structure, and re eq


does this sound feasible?

My first thought was, who the heck would install 3x 90deg boxes in an array? How dumb can you be?

But then...

These boxes have rotatable horns. It's entirely feasible that they have been rotated; these may be arrayed as 40x90, rather than 90x40. Or perhaps, the designer had intended them to be, and the installer failed to do so.

Really, you should have a qualified person come in and take a look at your install.

[Brad Weber]

Current state
1) Cluster of three EVF-1122S/94 (2 way speakers) in center of room
2) One sub on each side of room (about 17 yards away from cluster but in line with them)
3) R/L EVF in cluster powered by a single Crown CTS 600
4) Center EVF powered by dedicated Crown CTS 600
5) Pretty sure the subs have their own dedicated Crown CTS 600
6) EVF speakers in cluster are NOT running in bi-amp mode and ARE using their own passive crossover (full range mode)
7) Amps are connected to a DBX-260.

Problems
1) cluster speakers high and mids are to loud and there doesn't seem to be the needed lows
2) hot and cold spots all over the room
3) sides have more bass while middle has more mid and high
4) front is 5-10 db more (depending on how full the room is) from the rear (about 35 yards from front to rear)
5) massive bass "swells" in the rear of the room

I'm with the others that biamping is probably not an effective solution to the issues noted.
 
1) With three speakers in a cluster and the resulting expected summation of the low frequency outputs I would, if anything, expect more 'lows' from the main array.  Assuming the speakers are operating properly then insufficient low frequency response from the center cluster could be a result of a polarity issue between speakers in the cluster or the processing applied to the cluster speakers.
 
2) I'm not clear how you plan to use the delays in the processor to address the uneven coverage but coverage really should be addressed via proper speaker selection, placement and aiming.  Knowing more about the space and perhaps some pictures would really help in ascertaining the situation and possible solutions.
 
3) Not surprising given the speaker locations and simple distance effects.
 
4) Again, that sounds like a speaker selection and aiming factor.
 
5) Can you give a bit more description to what it is you hear?  Does the bass level change at different locations or does it vary while listening in a single location?
 
You mentioned the DBX 260 but do you happen to know how it is wired and programmed?  In particular, is the speaker system run as mono with the same signal to all speakers?  And how are the amps wired, for example does the amp for the main cluster L/R boxes have one input paralleled to both channels with one speaker per channel or is it run as stereo or mono bridge mode or some other configuration?  And is the center cluster speaker wired to one channel of its amp or is that amp run in bridge mode?
 
Turning off the amp for the L/R speakers in the center cluster and running just the center speaker as Tim suggested may also help in identifying if the horn is rotated as Jonathan noted.

[ProSoundWeb Community]