ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Vertec rigging  (Read 5774 times)

Theo_Christofore

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12
Vertec rigging
« on: November 08, 2013, 04:55:22 pm »

So I am pretty new to the line array scene.
My company has a new rig consisting of 8 vt4888. 4 per side, with 6 stsx828 on bottom. I am still working on some configuration and wiring, but I plan to have it up and running in the next couple of months.
Which brings me to the most important part... Getting them in the air! I have my eyes on a pair of genie st-25, but I have heard it can be tough to get more than 6-8 boxes per side, as the main support can get in the way of angling the boxes. Obviously I only am running 4 per side to start, but with plans of expanding, as well as renting if needed. The system will mostly be outdoors for regional summer festivals. We have smaller setups for indoor gigs, and have a local installation contract as well. So just to give you an idea, the vertec rig will only be coming out a hand full of times per season. Hopefully more as time goes on and we are adding more boxes etc.

What I am seeking is a little advice.
What are some experiences with the st25 lift and vertec boxes?
Should I be looking at different tower options?
I have the JBl array frames - what is the safest/most cost effective way to rig them to the genie forks? Spansets? Hardware?
**What seems to be the streamline way for setup and teardown?**
One by one? Or hoisting the whole line at once?

I have thought about getting manual chain hoists. But then I'm back to finding proper hardware. The genie seems to come low enough to the ground that there could be an easier solution.

Of course this would all make a little more sense to me if I had the genie in my shop. But I would hate to pay for this insane freight shipping, only to find out there could have been a better way.
Anything helps guys, especially pictures if you got any!
Help to ease my mind so I can get back to soldering, and actually getting some signal running through these beauties.


Thank you in advance!

--
Theo
Logged

Raul Suarez

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 33
    • Third Ear Sound
Re: Vertec rigging
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2013, 07:14:50 pm »

Theo-

Congratulation on the new Vertec system.  I am sure you will have a great time with it.  I would suggest that you look into the Vertec Training course that is offered by JBL.  This will cover many of your questions as well as providing you with useful theory and practical applications training.

The Genie ST-25 has a rated load limit of 650lbs at 18' in front of the mast.  This will max out at 5 of the 4888's (not Drivepack models) with the SF short array frame.  The SF frame will be vastly more usable with Genies than the full size AF frame.  While you can use the AF frame, you will want to rig it "reversed" so that the part of the frame that projects past the speakers is forward of the speakers.  Without reversing it the frame will interfere with the mast.  The AF frame is also heavier and will also reduce the number of speakers you can use.  Reversing the frame add a considerable level of effort to rigging the Vertecs on a Genie.  The Genie ST-20 has a higher load rating, but more than 5 speakers puts a large strain on the crank and pulley system and you will probably find your maintenance cycle on the Genie being much shorter.

Using Genies also mean taking the correct precautions about wind and guy wires when or if using outdoors.  Guy wires will further reduce the load capacity of the Genie.  There are a number of truss tower systems that are designed for line arrays.  Depending on your needs and goals, these may be a better answer for you.

We typically find it easiest to build the array on their carts along with the frame.  With 4 or 5 boxes you can actually preset all the angles on the ground so that the array has it curve.  We then stand it up and attach it to the forks which have been cranked so that they are at the correct height.  This does take 3-4 people or fewer very strong one.  This method allows you to get the frame up close to the Genie forks.  When working just build the array as if you had a motor hoist, but us the genie as your hoist.  You will need to spin the array around after it is off the ground so it doesn't face the mast. 

Whatever you do, I would suggest that you try it out several times before needing to use it on a show and have a knowledgeable expert examine your work and method for safety concerns. 

If hope this is helpful to you.

Raul Suarez
Third Ear Sound
Logged
Raul Suarez
General Manager
Third Ear Sound

Theo_Christofore

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 12
Re: Vertec rigging
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2013, 04:29:40 am »

Thank you, that covers a lot of my main concerns.
Although I'm still searching for the best option of getting SF array frame to the genie forks, in terms of hardware.
I know there must be several ways to go about it, I've even seen a local company use some kind of slacking method using straps on a vdosc rig, not sure if that appeals to me though.

I was thinking something pre-fab'd like this:
http://www.polarfocus.com/catalog/species/genie-kit-for-line-arrays-361/

I'm open to suggestions at this point.
Not sure what that polar focus system would cost me, but My local rigging supplier seems to carry everything I might need to do it on my own.
Logged

Steve Ferreira

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 373
Re: Vertec rigging
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2013, 10:22:08 am »

Theo,

Just because someone does something it doesn't mean that it's right. Personally I wouldn't be hanging line arrays on a Genie unless it's a smaller boxes. Like mentioned above, the maintenance on the Genie would go up with it having to lift almost to it's capacity every time. I would look into motors/chainfalls for indoor gigs and Applieds line array towers for outdoors if stages are not an option.

http://www.appliednn.com/l_LA12-25.php

You must also take into account dynamic loads on points.

Logged

Riley Casey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1442
Re: Vertec rigging
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2013, 11:16:03 am »

I think you will find that a single Genie will not meet your needs in terms of array geometry in addition to the weight issues.  You can't hang far enough from the mast to get the curve needed for anything but a straight hang, bang off the back wall sort of deployment.  If you already have an investment in Genies you can span a pair of Genies with a stick of truss and hang the array from that and the foot print isn't too much worse that the truss style lift towers from vendors like Applied.  Its a bit tedious to deploy and not fast to reel in in the event of an outdoor system that needs to come down fast in the face of weather, pretty much an indoor solution. The old scaffold tower system with an I beam for the motor is still a useful solution just very labor intensive.

The 88s are the sweet spot in the Vertec line in terms of performance but they really are designed for a motor hang.

...
My company has a new rig consisting of 8 vt4888. 4 per side, with 6 stsx828 on bottom….

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20966
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: Vertec rigging
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2013, 12:53:27 pm »

Hi Theo-

I've written a couple of responses that came off as a bit snarky (me? perish the thought!) but beyond the tone were correct.  I'm trying to distill the snark out of my writing.  We'll see if that gets managed with this reply.

Genie lifts other than the ST series are not designed to hold a load at height for an indefinite amount of time.  All the other comments about load center distance from the mast, the accelerated wear on the lift, etc are spot on.  If you load a Genie anywhere close to capacity you'll be rebuilding them on a regular basis.  Trust me, I know because we did exactly what you're thinking about.  We don't do that any more except for 4887 hangs and there are still limitations of both curvature and load CoG in most applications.

Buying the "line array" is only about 65% of the cost of actually deploying the rig.  You need chain hoists, either motorized or manual, and a safe way to attach the hoist to a suitable structure - either a lift or venue structure.  If you have no rigging knowledge (which I strongly suspect), you have no business doing either by yourself.  You'll need to hire a rigger (or several, depending on the venue) and get training for you, too.

Raul's suggestion to take JBL's VerTec training is spot on, too.  Although there is more emphasis on the new STX models, the fundamental training should be pretty much the same.  As a VerTec owner you will qualify for a discount on the training.  I attended in 2008 and even though I had a pretty good grasp of the mechanics of building and wiring VerTec arrays (I work as a stage hand, too), there was so much more presented that at times it was like trying to take a drink from a fire hose.  It's well worth your time and money.  Really.

The Applied Electronics tower that Steve Ferreira links to is one possibility, as is another product, the Mini-Tower http://www.appliednn.com/l_CMT.php .  Applied has a custom cantilever arm that attaches to the slide block and a different "front" outrigger base.  The rating is 1200#, but the load CoG needs to be very close to the tower for that rating.  Applied can supply loading data for different distances.  The major difference between the 2 lifts we've linked to is that the LA12-25 will allow you to either keep your speakers in a cart, as Raul mentions, or you can build a "train" the way JBL teaches.  The front outrigger of the Mini25 will not allow either of these approaches, so you build the array 1 box at a time.  For 4 boxes it's not bad with a good crew, but it's still slower than the other ways.

Also, the Applied products can be used outdoors and Applied will supply ratings and methods for guying upon request.  They're not the only company that makes these things, but Applied had been top notch in customer support for us.

How are you processing/powering your 4888s?
« Last Edit: November 09, 2013, 12:55:54 pm by Tim McCulloch »
Logged
"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Kristian Stevenson

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 92
  • Lynchburg, VA
Re: Vertec rigging
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2013, 02:51:29 pm »

I concur with the suggestion of the applied array towers. We setup our 4888 rig (6 boxes per side) 3 times a week indoors with the applied towers. Before my time, they used genie st-20 towers for this rig which I heard was a nightmare to crank and as others have alluded to, the genies didn't last long hoisting that kind of weight 3 times a week.
 
The applied towers have held up great even with this extensive use. Occasionally we use them outdoors with 8 boxes.

Below is a picture of a relay for life event on campus. This particular night, we had to drop the rig at 2am because of a storm rolling in and wind picking up.



Logged
Kristian Stevenson

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Vertec rigging
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2013, 02:51:29 pm »


Pages: [1]   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.073 seconds with 22 queries.