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Author Topic: New speakers for HOW  (Read 18532 times)

Mark McFarlane

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Re: New speakers for HOW
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2013, 01:15:24 pm »

QSC AD282-HT, probably in white for that room. We just did a pair of these with a cheap GX5 amp in a similar sized room. These do great I you don't need the low program. They also have an inexpensive wall mount that is easy to install and would be relatively safe for anyone to install following the manual.

Run them mono and you can use their current amp to have $ for DSP and sub

Add a sub and DSP for better LF response.

Thanks Eric, I'll have a look at these tomorrow.
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Tim Weaver

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Re: New speakers for HOW
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2013, 01:59:20 pm »

Thanks Tim.  It looks like these are designed for vertical mount applications. I also didn't see any polar plots, or even a mention of pattern.

They are a very new product from a smaller company. I walked the pattern and it is very wide. 100+ degrees horizontal. They are 10 degrees vertical when used in singles. The street price would be about 2 grand each, but I don't know what shipping and taxes may be to you.

1 cabinet would suffice as a starter. The box gets quite loud.


Also, there is the Toa HX5 system. Those things are very cheap and have a ton of rigging options. Combine 2 of those with a powered sub and you'll be in business. They are around 500-ish street price last time I checked. Your current amp would work fine for them.
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: New speakers for HOW
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2013, 05:34:11 pm »

Thanks Lee. 

Have you heard the IF2208's?

Do you know if Yamaha's modeling software is free?

Yes, they sound quite good for the size and price.

The software is free.

Lee
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Scott Hofmann

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Re: New speakers for HOW
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2013, 06:18:00 pm »

You might consider using a "column" type "line array" system here, mounted on the front or more likely side walls. The Bose MA-12 has worked very well for me in difficult (very wide) rooms not needing huge SPL's. With the flat floor, only 1 unit per side could work here, although a stacked pair per side, with a sub for the lows would be better. TOA makes quality column arrays, as does Tannoy. Here's video on Community's Entasys series (although it really does give much useful info you can see different sizes):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8nUTbBOCG0&feature=youtu.be

Most of them are designed to be painted to match the room.
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: New speakers for HOW
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2013, 10:23:47 am »

They are a very new product from a smaller company. I walked the pattern and it is very wide. 100+ degrees horizontal. They are 10 degrees vertical when used in singles. The street price would be about 2 grand each, but I don't know what shipping and taxes may be to you.

1 cabinet would suffice as a starter. The box gets quite loud.


Also, there is the Toa HX5 system. Those things are very cheap and have a ton of rigging options. Combine 2 of those with a powered sub and you'll be in business. They are around 500-ish street price last time I checked. Your current amp would work fine for them.

The TOA Hx5 looks very interesting, but the standard 4-box hang is going to be at least 24" with rigging.  That won't work very well 'in front of the band' with a 9 foot ceiling.  Along the back wall they might be OK, but then the pattern is getting in the mics. 

I may need to try some speakers on sticks along the back wall (one directly behind the podium) and see how much GBF we can get.  That will help determine if that position is workable or not.  My preference is to have the speakers ceiling mounted 6' out from the wall (with screen), but I can't handle more than 12" of hang, and 6" would be better.

The current room speaker setup (see photo), although asymmetrical, I guess works fairly well. THe vocalists are all on the right side of the room (marked Band) while instrumentalists are on the other side of the room (also marked Band).
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Mark McFarlane
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Mike Harper

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Re: New speakers for HOW
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2013, 12:42:46 pm »

Thanks Tom for the ideas. In the OP it says 'vocals, acoustic guitars, keys' at low SPLs.  100db (C) peak at the back of the room (20' from the ceiling mount) should be adequate (95 is probably OK).  A sub would allow bass to be played through the system, but it's not required, there is a bass amp in the room.

I went through the Zx1's specs and available mounts, they're not really designed for hanging horizontally, they have a mount for vertical wire hangs and a mount for pole hangs (still vertical), that's it.  Initially I'd like to find a low profile box that has proper mounting hardware for horizontal mounting.  If such a device can't be sourced, then something like Zx1's (or 10s or 12s) on a stick will be fine.

Regarding mounts, I still have to determine the ceiling material. Based on local construction, it may be concrete, there may be studs and wallboard

Someone's suggestion of using one element of a line array is interesting, but I don't think it will work well. Even though there are usually only 5 rows of seats, due to the low ceiling and shallow room we'll need something like 70 degree vertical to cover the front and back rows, both standing and sitting.

All the church is asking for is an incremental improvement over <$200 Yamaha speakers.

Hopefully someone makes some decent speakers designed for this application.  For example, something with the profile of a Bose L1, but designed to be mounted horizontally (speaker alignment and hardware), seems like it would work great.

Mark,

I think you were looking at the specs for the ZX1 and not the ZX1i.  We have a pair of ZX1i installed in our college room at our church, in the basement.  They are mounted horizontally using the supplied mounting arms.  I can get you some pictures tonight of what we have.
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: New speakers for HOW
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2013, 02:03:21 am »

Mark,

I think you were looking at the specs for the ZX1 and not the ZX1i.  We have a pair of ZX1i installed in our college room at our church, in the basement.  They are mounted horizontally using the supplied mounting arms.  I can get you some pictures tonight of what we have.

You are correct Mike, I was looking at the wrong one.  Thanks.

I can't tell from the i version documents if it can get the angle I need with a ceiling mount.  All of the pics I looked at show it pointing 'down' too much.  Can you mount horizontally and get it tilting down only 20-30 degrees?

It looks like I could use the 90*50 version and optimize the position for 'standing'. When people are sitting it will be mostly spoken word so the pattern isn't quite as important.
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Brad Weber

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Re: New speakers for HOW
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2013, 04:30:39 am »

When people are sitting it will be mostly spoken word so the pattern isn't quite as important.
When intelligibility is most critical is often when the pattern may also be the most critical.  You may not worry as much about the pattern at the extremes of the response but throughout the speech range the pattern may indeed be important.
 
You might want to look at something like some of the EAW UB series products or other 'under balcony' speakers that are designed for horizontal mounting.
 
Be aware that if you use a nominal vertically oriented box in a horizontal orientation with the horn rotated then rotating the horn can change the interactions of the horn with the woofer through crossover and can result in a different and typically not identified horizontal pattern at those frequencies.
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Mike Harper

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Re: New speakers for HOW
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2013, 11:39:46 am »

You are correct Mike, I was looking at the wrong one.  Thanks.

I can't tell from the i version documents if it can get the angle I need with a ceiling mount.  All of the pics I looked at show it pointing 'down' too much.  Can you mount horizontally and get it tilting down only 20-30 degrees?

It looks like I could use the 90*50 version and optimize the position for 'standing'. When people are sitting it will be mostly spoken word so the pattern isn't quite as important.

Here are a few pictures I snapped with my phone last night.







As you can see the mounting arms are attached to a 10' piece of Uni-Strut, via + shaped plate, spring nuts in the channel and standard nuts and bolts attaching the bracket to the plate outside of the channel.  The Uni-Strut channel is supported from the floor joists above via threaded rod and L brackets attached to the floor joists with bolts and nuts. 

The horns on our speakers are rotated so that they are 90 deg horizontal in this position.  I think our down tilt on them is roughly around 30 deg.  I can probably check on that later.
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: New speakers for HOW
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2013, 12:58:04 pm »

Here are a few pictures I snapped with my phone last night.
...

Thanks mike, that relieves my fear of getting hem close to the ceiling.  These look like a good solution.  Do the i's sound as similar to the Zx1A's that everyone has been raving about?  I assume they use the same drivers.
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Mark McFarlane
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Re: New speakers for HOW
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2013, 12:58:04 pm »


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