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Author Topic: New speakers for HOW  (Read 18531 times)

Tom Young

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Re: New speakers for HOW
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2013, 07:52:00 pm »

Mark-

You are in the same position that we consultant/designers occasionally find ourselves: the budget is simply not workable.

For $2-3k you can find something that probably (this depends largely on bass content and overall SPL) has the potential to be loud enough but given the architecture and layout of seating, you will not get anything that sounds good and does not feedback.

Regardless of whether you buy bottom-of-barrel or the most expensive speakers on earth, you need DSP to ensure that the speakers work well in this space and with one another. This doesn't have to cost a lot, but you better include it. This pushes the budget up more.

In these situations you are doing the client a disservice by going along with the budget that they have come up with. Who will care if you donate your own money if it sucks ? Far better to tell them to come up with more in order to not waste money.....and time.

Also, you say that you do not want speakers on sticks. Fine. How are you advising (and overseeing) them as far as rigging safety ? Just because these are not 30-40 feet in the air does not mean they will not seriously hurt someone if they come down.

FWIW
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Tom Young
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Chris Penny

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Re: New speakers for HOW
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2013, 08:21:49 pm »

My quick thought on this is 3 White EV ZX1i's bolted to the roof covering a section each. Ideally I would go with something wooden, but the ZX series are pretty inexpensive and don't sound that bad.  I have used ZX1s in a few small rooms/overflow spaces at my last two churches and I still think they are an ok all purpose 8" plastic cabinet.

I would pay attention to the DSP suggestion from Tom and prioritise this over the speakers.
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Sound Guy
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Tom Young

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Re: New speakers for HOW
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2013, 08:56:50 pm »

My quick thought on this is 3 White EV ZX1i's bolted to the roof covering a section each. Ideally I would go with something wooden, but the ZX series are pretty inexpensive and don't sound that bad.  I have used ZX1s in a few small rooms/overflow spaces at my last two churches and I still think they are an ok all purpose 8" plastic cabinet.

I would pay attention to the DSP suggestion from Tom and prioritise this over the speakers.

I love the Zx1's and agree that they could work, coverage-wise. What bothers me is the absence of subs versus the unknowns of the praise band: how loud and how low do they need to go ?  The Zx1's can handle a lot, but not with uncontrolled LF levels.

The Zx1's would be well-suited also because of their low weight. But you still need someone who knows how to determine suitable rigging points up in the ceiling and how to correctly fashion bridles. Etc, etc.
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Tom Young
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: New speakers for HOW
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2013, 04:32:37 am »

I love the Zx1's and agree that they could work, coverage-wise. What bothers me is the absence of subs versus the unknowns of the praise band: how loud and how low do they need to go ?  The Zx1's can handle a lot, but not with uncontrolled LF levels.

The Zx1's would be well-suited also because of their low weight. But you still need someone who knows how to determine suitable rigging points up in the ceiling and how to correctly fashion bridles. Etc, etc.

Thanks Tom for the ideas. In the OP it says 'vocals, acoustic guitars, keys' at low SPLs.  100db (C) peak at the back of the room (20' from the ceiling mount) should be adequate (95 is probably OK).  A sub would allow bass to be played through the system, but it's not required, there is a bass amp in the room.

I went through the Zx1's specs and available mounts, they're not really designed for hanging horizontally, they have a mount for vertical wire hangs and a mount for pole hangs (still vertical), that's it.  Initially I'd like to find a low profile box that has proper mounting hardware for horizontal mounting.  If such a device can't be sourced, then something like Zx1's (or 10s or 12s) on a stick will be fine.

Regarding mounts, I still have to determine the ceiling material. Based on local construction, it may be concrete, there may be studs and wallboard

Someone's suggestion of using one element of a line array is interesting, but I don't think it will work well. Even though there are usually only 5 rows of seats, due to the low ceiling and shallow room we'll need something like 70 degree vertical to cover the front and back rows, both standing and sitting.

All the church is asking for is an incremental improvement over <$200 Yamaha speakers.

Hopefully someone makes some decent speakers designed for this application.  For example, something with the profile of a Bose L1, but designed to be mounted horizontally (speaker alignment and hardware), seems like it would work great.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 04:52:25 am by Mark McFarlane »
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Mark McFarlane
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: New speakers for HOW
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2013, 04:51:28 am »


I just heard these things at the WFX loudspeaker demo. They are very good bang for the buck. 2 of them would do you just fine and could be stacked as a mono center cluster, or spread out as left and right. They are powered and would stretch your budget a little bit, but not too much.

http://www.elipsisaudio.com.mx/producto.php?id=114

Thanks Tim.  It looks like these are designed for vertical mount applications. I also didn't see any polar plots, or even a mention of pattern.
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Mark McFarlane
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Mike Scott

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Re: New speakers for HOW
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2013, 09:30:49 am »

I understand that you are not interested in the active QSC speaker on a stick (K or KW).  However, I think if you read their user manual it will describe most of what you say you need.  There is local QSC support and I'm guessing that you are not at the actual location.       
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eric lenasbunt

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Re: New speakers for HOW
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2013, 09:48:05 am »

QSC AD282-HT, probably in white for that room. We just did a pair of these with a cheap GX5 amp in a similar sized room. These do great I you don't need the low program. They also have an inexpensive wall mount that is easy to install and would be relatively safe for anyone to install following the manual.

Run them mono and you can use their current amp to have $ for DSP and sub

Add a sub and DSP for better LF response.
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: New speakers for HOW
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2013, 09:58:02 am »

I understand that you are not interested in the active QSC speaker on a stick (K or KW).  However, I think if you read their user manual it will describe most of what you say you need.  There is local QSC support and I'm guessing that you are not at the actual location.     

Thanks Mike.  It's not clear from the docs if the k10 yoke can be used for a ceiling mount , the only picture is a rear mount, but a phone call can resolve this.  Is there a passive version of the k10s?
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Mark McFarlane
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: New speakers for HOW
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2013, 12:21:33 pm »

Any ideas for new speakers for this room?

Usage is a multi-purpose church room that acts as a chapel twice a week. Has various events all day and night every day.  Primary use for the speakers is for a Contemporary Christian band twice a week. Band is not too loud (I don't have SPL levels, but not very loud).  Band PA is typically vocals, some keys and acoustic guitar. 

Currently they are using some cheap Yamaha 8" or 10" speakers, so anything will be an improvement.

Budget is $2,000 for the speakers and amp, I could donate another $1K if necessary.  Nice but not necessary to have a sub.

Guy who runs the room is thinking passive for ease of wiring, but he only has an old QSC MX 700 amp (250W @ 4 Ohm, 150W @ 8 Ohm).

Floor plan has some 70 degree pies draw as reference. Ceiling is ~9 foot tall , but there are some columns that get in the way.  There is also a projector and screen dead center in the room, so any center cluster would need to hug the ceiling, like maybe 10 inches of max hang.

Gear would likely be shipped from the USA.  Local repair service available for Mackie and QSC, but probably won't be needed for passive speakers.

Any ideas?

Mark,
If there is availability nearby check out the Yamaha IF2112AS.  Decent sound quality, asymmetrical horn that can be quite handy in trying to accommodate a low ceiling longer throw situation.
Price once you include an amp may be too high though.

Lee
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: New speakers for HOW
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2013, 01:14:34 pm »

Mark,
If there is availability nearby check out the Yamaha IF2112AS.  Decent sound quality, asymmetrical horn that can be quite handy in trying to accommodate a low ceiling longer throw situation.
Price once you include an amp may be too high though.

Lee

Thanks Lee. 

Have you heard the IF2208's?  These seem to be the largest speakers they have ceiling mounts for...  Those 12's with 3" compression drivers look pretty nice, though, but I think we'd have to mount them on the back wall, behind the podium, which is problematic.  They are too big to hang in the middle of the room, in front of the projector.

The beams combined with the projector in this room really mess with options. Center mount speakers are in the way of the projector, and the beams lower the effective ceiling height to 8' if you want to hang on the beams.  Three ceiling mounted speakers might be the best solution, on each side of the beam.

Do you know if Yamaha's modeling software is free?
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Mark McFarlane
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Re: New speakers for HOW
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2013, 01:14:34 pm »


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