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Author Topic: Need new cameras (long post)  (Read 4278 times)

Ole Anderson

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Need new cameras (long post)
« on: October 06, 2013, 12:14:52 pm »

Ok, here is a video post in the Sound forum.  Let's see if any of you can advise me.  I always see that the articles in Church Production mag talk down to anything other than pro video equipment for recording or even IMAG.  They talk like you can't expect a decent product unless you spend at  $20-50k on cameras, switcher, communication  equipment and so on.  For smaller churches like ours (average 140 attendance), that just isn't going to happen.

Here is my situation: We have been producing a weekly video of our church service for the local public access cable channel for 20 years. 12 years ago we got our own equipment, 3 JVS consumer cameras connected with s-video cable to a 4 channel Videonics switcher, mixed live and recorded on a Panasonic DVD recorder purchased 4 years ago. Cameras are getting old and I would like to step up in quality to HD cameras with decent glass without the expense of going to $3,000 entry level pro video cameras.  We have one camera fixed to look out over the congregation from the front of the church, with two cameras in the congregation, one near the center aisle 3 rows from the front, another on the far side aisle 3 rows back.  Traditional rectangular sanctuary 2 pews wide by 15 pews deep.  We project the song text, readings, and liturgy on front and rear screens using (gasp) SundayPlus.  IMAG just gets used for the children's message.  We use a Kramer (719?) unit to switch between the computer output, IMAG and DVD presentations.  So for a church our size we are fairly sophisticated.

I ran across this post on the AVS forum:

Quote:
"If you have a craving for big-sensor video (the 18 megapixel APS-C sensor is almost 3X that of the RX100 sensor and bigger than that of the GH3's sensor) and Canon color and shallow dof with full manual video controls - including manual audio - mic-in, interchangeable lenses for the whole Canon line, and pocketable with the pancake 35mm f2 then check out the Canon EOS-M.

 When it came out last year it was expensive and had a really slow autofocus, and was ignored. Then last month it got a firmware upgrade that fixed the autofocus and then the price was lowered (just like the Panasonic LX7). Now it seems to be a very hot item.

 It has all the same features as the Canon TS4i (700D) and bigger Canons, but it is small and mirrorless. The dedicated smaller-mount lenses get rave reviews, but with an adaptor it takes all Canon lenses with full auto-focus. 108030p at 45Mbps with wav audio (uncompressed!), 108024p, 72060p, etc. (yes, no 108060p).

 Yes, $299 to get the same video as used in movies and on episodic TV! Low-light video; shallow dof (and moire too, just like the pros)."


Given the budget, I would really like to go with a 3 camera HD PTZ setup, but that would be more than $10k by itself before you even consider controllers.  So I am looking at taking advantage of the excellent video quality of the large sensor EOS cameras and continue using volunteer camera operators. I have a spare 18-55 and a 55-250 lens off my personal Canon T2i, that with adaptors, fit the EOS-M. Concerns:

-Can the EOS series be used in continuous (typically about 90 minutes) video mode without recording to internal memory cards?
-Will it send a live signal from the HDMI connector?
-Will the battery really allow 90 minutes of continuous use?

Bluejeans Cables offers HD Belden HDMI cables in the max 70 foot length I need.

I would need to upgrade the switcher to something that takes HDMI input, I have one in mind that uses a computer interface and outputs all views to a single 1080p TV. Eventually we would need to look at migrating from the limiting DVD format for recording possibly going to hard drive computer recording which would allow one-step non linear editing.  Now we record to DVD, then rip that to the hard drive, edit and burn a final copy for distribution.  I realize that our public access channel really won't be accepting HD for some time, but I would like to "future-proof" ourselves for at least 10 years.  And by running HD up to the editing input, final quality in SD will be maximized.

I am just thinking with all the advances in DSLR video, there had to be an in-between ground for quality video for a church like ours.
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Tom Young

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Re: Need new cameras (long post)
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2013, 03:55:53 pm »

Ole-

I think your post would be better served if in the HOW A-V section.

Your call.
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Tom Young
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Frank DeWitt

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Re: Need new cameras (long post)
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2013, 05:32:19 pm »

I am not familiar with the equipment you list (Although I would like to be) (Grin) but we are using a Panasonic XC-X900 to send HDMI to 3 monitors.  On a 50 inch monitor the image looks fantastic.  sharp, great colors,  I know it is consumer but nothing is lacking.  We chose it for long optical zoom, real time HDMI out, external audio in, and price.

Frank
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Ole Anderson

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Re: Need new cameras (long post)
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2013, 08:51:41 pm »

Ole-

I think your post would be better served if in the HOW A-V section.

Your call.

Would you be so kind as to move it to the AV forum Tom?  Thanks.
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Ole Anderson

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Re: Need new cameras (long post)
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2013, 09:25:33 pm »

I am not familiar with the equipment you list (Although I would like to be) (Grin) but we are using a Panasonic XC-X900 to send HDMI to 3 monitors.  On a 50 inch monitor the image looks fantastic.  sharp, great colors,  I know it is consumer but nothing is lacking.  We chose it for long optical zoom, real time HDMI out, external audio in, and price.

Frank

Guess I have been out of the loop for some time.  An affordable 3 chip camera like this might be a good alternative to my unique idea.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Need new cameras (long post)
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2013, 09:11:26 am »

Ole, one of the common issues with i-mag is latency, how much delay on what the people see on the screen versus the actual live action.  That is the total delay including any latency inherent in the camera output, any latency if frame syncing unsychronized sources, any latency in the video switcher, any latency from converting between different signal type and/or resolutions and any latency in the projector.  All that can easily add up to a readily noticeable overall latency or delay in the displayed image.
 
Of course the latency is application specific, in other words it's a result of the particular combination of devices and signal paths involved, but keeping latency to a minimum is often one justification for the higher cost systems while noticeable latency is pretty common for lower cost systems.
 
You might have to contact Canon directly on some of the product specific questions as that type of information is often not included in the manuals or other online resources.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 11:52:15 am by Brad Weber »
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Jano Svitok

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Re: Need new cameras (long post)
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2013, 10:42:23 am »

I'm not an A/V guy, just 2 comments:

- http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/atemtelevisionstudio looks like nice computer-based HDMI switcher with HDD recording. I had it rented once and was able to record 9 hours straight to HDD. The source was 3 consumer cameras, that were mixed online to one stream that was recorded.

- during that event, I had problems with long HDMI cables - I had 2m (6 ft) mini HDMI to HDMI cables, 5m (15 ft) and 10m (30 ft) HDMI cables. Some of the cameras could not drive
5m+2m cables, and none could drive 10+2 (I don't remember the models/brands now, they were something like sony/panasonic). That means you may (or may not) have problems with long HDMI cables (in that case, SD converter may be a solution).
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Jordan Wolf

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Re: Need new cameras (long post)
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2013, 11:08:13 am »

I'm not an A/V guy, just 2 comments:

- http://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/atemtelevisionstudio looks like nice computer-based HDMI switcher with HDD recording. I had it rented once and was able to record 9 hours straight to HDD. The source was 3 consumer cameras, that were mixed online to one stream that was recorded.

- during that event, I had problems with long HDMI cables - I had 2m (6 ft) mini HDMI to HDMI cables, 5m (15 ft) and 10m (30 ft) HDMI cables. Some of the cameras could not drive
5m+2m cables, and none could drive 10+2 (I don't remember the models/brands now, they were something like sony/panasonic). That means you may (or may not) have problems with long HDMI cables (in that case, SD converter may be a solution).
Jano,

I have found that HDMI lines that are lengthened using couplers, instead of a longer, heavier-gauge cable, have issues.  I regularly use 50ft. HDMI cables from DAs and also point-to-point (source to destination), but they are one solid run, 22AWG, and are kept out of foot traffic and from bending too sharply.

There are also active and/or equalized HDMI cables out there that allow for longer runs, and they're not prohibitively expensive.  If you have access to them, they may be an option to explore - otherwise, Cat5/6/7 video extenders, or Fiber, is the way to go.

I have had much success (surprisingly) with offerings from Monoprice.
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Jordan Wolf
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Tommy Peel

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Re: Need new cameras (long post)
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2013, 03:43:59 pm »

Jano,

I have found that HDMI lines that are lengthened using couplers, instead of a longer, heavier-gauge cable, have issues.  I regularly use 50ft. HDMI cables from DAs and also point-to-point (source to destination), but they are one solid run, 22AWG, and are kept out of foot traffic and from bending too sharply.

There are also active and/or equalized HDMI cables out there that allow for longer runs, and they're not prohibitively expensive.  If you have access to them, they may be an option to explore - otherwise, Cat5/6/7 video extenders, or Fiber, is the way to go.

I have had much success (surprisingly) with offerings from Monoprice.

I've had good luck with Monoprice's HDMI cables and splitters too. I recently helped with a church install in a youth room that used one of their 75ft equalized cables. They're around $50ea. Here's the shopping list from that install; it's all been working great. 75ft from FOH to behind TV1 where it attached to a 2-way splitter that went to TV1 with a short cable and to TV2 with a 25ft cable.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

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Brad Weber

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Re: Need new cameras (long post)
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2013, 07:18:52 am »

Sometimes a factor in HDMI switchers is if they provide any scaling or if everything has to be in one common resolution and format.  In professional systems you also often get into how they address EDID and HDCP.
 
For example, with the Blackmagic ATEM products I believe there is no scaling, scan rate conversion, color space conversion, etc. provided.  All inputs and otuput have the be the same resolution and scan/refresh rate, which is selected from a limited list of options, and they all have to support YUV color space.  If you can work within that then they can be a cost efective solution, if you have to start also purchasing a bunch of additional external scalers and converters then there may be better options.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Need new cameras (long post)
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2013, 07:18:52 am »


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