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Grounding to the neutral bar?

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duane massey:
I have come across many, many non-compliant electrical systems down here in Texas. Heck, you get out into the rural areas where there IS no electrical inspector or code and you can find all sorts of interesting (and dangerous) things. It is quite common to find romex run throughout a building with no grounds connected at the outlets, or #14-2 romex tied to a 30a breaker. Back in "the day" when our band played these halls out in the sticks we carried a box with every brand of breaker just to be able to perform, which was still better than some of the other acts who used big alligator clips to go straight to the rails.
I'm very, very glad those days are long gone.

Tommy Peel:

--- Quote from: duane massey on October 22, 2013, 12:52:31 AM ---I have come across many, many non-compliant electrical systems down here in Texas. Heck, you get out into the rural areas where there IS no electrical inspector or code and you can find all sorts of interesting (and dangerous) things.

--- End quote ---

+1  Rural areas can get really interesting really fast...

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

Tom Bourke:

--- Quote from: Tommy Peel on October 22, 2013, 01:21:27 AM ---+1  Rural areas can get really interesting really fast...

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

--- End quote ---
I think that is part of the divide on this discussion.  It is easy to just get a licensed electrician when your in a decent sized metropolitan area.  When your an hour from the nearest thing resembling a town there are no electricians.  The rules start to become more of a political/popularity contest.  One of the most dangerous situations I ever saw was a county maintenance guy who threw his weight around and got bonus pay to do a "tie in." When I arrived I found an open door to a room with some soow 6-3 laying on the ground.  One end was running in the panel to a 50A breaker that was ON.  The other end was open ends, laying on a wet cement floor inches from a copper water pipe feeding 2 public bathrooms.  WTF!!!

I have also run into my share of licensed electricians who did not know shit about electricity, history of power distribution, and other knowledge needed to make safe and clean power available.  I was talking to one of the supervising electricians for a theatre upgrade I was involved with about older 3 phase systems.  He said most of the young electricians under him knew nothing about the old or odd 3 phase systems.

I think it is important that we, as production professionals, at least learn to recognize the various power configurations and potential safety failure points.  We may not be certified or hold the licence to "fix" the problems.  However it is our responsibility to recognize and be able to articulate to others what problems we find.

Terms like qualified, competent, certified, and licensed have very specific meanings when dealing with NEC, OSHA, insurance, and other legal situations. https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=10618

We should, at a minimum, strive to meet the definitions of qualified and competent.  This means getting training and experience.  We also have to understand our local laws.  Where I use to live I could do any electrical work I wanted to my house, including the main feeder and meter base, as long as I had a permit and it was inspected.  In the next town over I could not even replace an outlet.  Where I live now I am not allowed to install low voltage signal lines with out a licence.  However, I can legally do a tie in to a 120/208 400A disconnect with out a licence, if the venue allows.

Jamin Lynch:

--- Quote from: Tom Bourke on October 22, 2013, 03:02:12 AM ---I think that is part of the divide on this discussion.  It is easy to just get a licensed electrician when your in a decent sized metropolitan area.  When your an hour from the nearest thing resembling a town there are no electricians.  The rules start to become more of a political/popularity contest.  One of the most dangerous situations I ever saw was a county maintenance guy who threw his weight around and got bonus pay to do a "tie in." When I arrived I found an open door to a room with some soow 6-3 laying on the ground.  One end was running in the panel to a 50A breaker that was ON.  The other end was open ends, laying on a wet cement floor inches from a copper water pipe feeding 2 public bathrooms.  WTF!!!

I have also run into my share of licensed electricians who did not know shit about electricity, history of power distribution, and other knowledge needed to make safe and clean power available.  I was talking to one of the supervising electricians for a theatre upgrade I was involved with about older 3 phase systems.  He said most of the young electricians under him knew nothing about the old or odd 3 phase systems.

I think it is important that we, as production professionals, at least learn to recognize the various power configurations and potential safety failure points.  We may not be certified or hold the licence to "fix" the problems.  However it is our responsibility to recognize and be able to articulate to others what problems we find.

Terms like qualified, competent, certified, and licensed have very specific meanings when dealing with NEC, OSHA, insurance, and other legal situations. https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=10618

We should, at a minimum, strive to meet the definitions of qualified and competent.  This means getting training and experience.  We also have to understand our local laws.  Where I use to live I could do any electrical work I wanted to my house, including the main feeder and meter base, as long as I had a permit and it was inspected.  In the next town over I could not even replace an outlet.  Where I live now I am not allowed to install low voltage signal lines with out a licence.  However, I can legally do a tie in to a 120/208 400A disconnect with out a licence, if the venue allows.

--- End quote ---

You hit the nail on the head!

Down here in South Texas we have a lot of "out in the middle of nowhere" gigs. Getting an electrician out to fix a problem a couple of hours before show time just isn't going to happen. And walking away isn't the other option.  So we have to do what we can.

Just a week ago I was hired to do provide sound and lights for a small gig. I took everyone's advice and drove to the location...twice...to discuss power requirements and check out the venue. I specifically went over exactly what was required. The promoter said,"I'll have an electrician out here to hook up the proper power." When I showed up there was a generator, OK no problem I'll just use that. Well there was no cable or spider box and only 2 circuits on the generator. So what should I have done in this case? Oh, PS,  It's a one hour round trip drive.

Just because you go out to the location and specify exactly what you need doesn't mean you' re going to get it. So if I walk away, that's 2 in one month that I'm told I should walk away from. Can't afford to do that.

Tim McCulloch:

--- Quote from: Jamin Lynch on October 25, 2013, 11:19:05 AM ---You hit the nail on the head!

Down here in South Texas we have a lot of "out in the middle of nowhere" gigs. Getting an electrician out to fix a problem a couple of hours before show time just isn't going to happen. And walking away isn't the other option.  So we have to do what we can.

Just a week ago I was hired to do provide sound and lights for a small gig. I took everyone's advice and drove to the location...twice...to discuss power requirements and check out the venue. I specifically went over exactly what was required. The promoter said,"I'll have an electrician out here to hook up the proper power." When I showed up there was a generator, OK no problem I'll just use that. Well there was no cable or spider box and only 2 circuits on the generator. So what should I have done in this case?

Just because you go out to the location and specify exactly what you need doesn't mean you' re going to get it. So if I walk away, that's 2 in one month that I'm told I should walk away from. Can't afford to do that.

--- End quote ---

You go to the artist and say "The promoter wants me to use inadequate and potentially unsafe electrical service.  As the promoter is my client I will do whatever he wants me to do in whatever manner is possible.  I'm telling you this as a courtesy and to give you an opportunity to get the promoter do this in a safe manner."

If anything bad happens, you're already on the hook for knowing better but not insisting on a dangerous situation being corrected, so you might as well tell the band you don't mind subjecting them to electrocution because the promoter is a cheap-skate asshole that doesn't give a damn about the safety of the band, your crew/system, and potentially the safety of the public as well.  These fuckers should be taken out and shot.

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