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Author Topic: Hanging choir mics with lots of GBF  (Read 8544 times)

eric lenasbunt

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Hanging choir mics with lots of GBF
« on: September 11, 2013, 09:37:49 AM »

I need to transition from AT4033's on the ground to some hanging choir mics. I think the best solution for us will be mics with high Gain before feedback.
  Budget is not super tight, but no Earthworks type of budget. My general analysis would say 7-8 mics total in two rows.

What are you using?

And I saw other threads about this, but I am looking specifically for high GBF choir hanging mics.
Thanks!
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Brad Weber

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Re: Hanging choir mics with lots of GBF
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2013, 11:11:40 AM »

I need to transition from AT4033's on the ground to some hanging choir mics. I think the best solution for us will be mics with high Gain before feedback.
  Budget is not super tight, but no Earthworks type of budget. My general analysis would say 7-8 mics total in two rows.

What are you using?

And I saw other threads about this, but I am looking specifically for high GBF choir hanging mics.
Gain before feedback is a function of number of factors and a microphone that provides greater gain before feedback than another mic in one application may provide lower gain before feedback than the other microphone in another.  For example, a hypercardioid mic may generally provide greater gain before feedback than a cardioid microphone, however if the back lobe of the hyper ends up aimed at the house speakers, some monitors or an acoustically reflective surface then it might actually provide less gain before feedback.
 
Also be sure to consider the microphone height and spacing in relation to the associated pickup and the '3:1 rule'.
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Re: Hanging choir mics with lots of GBF
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2013, 12:37:12 PM »

Gain before feedback is a function of number of factors and a microphone that provides greater gain before feedback than another mic in one application may provide lower gain before feedback than the other microphone in another.  For example, a hypercardioid mic may generally provide greater gain before feedback than a cardioid microphone, however if the back lobe of the hyper ends up aimed at the house speakers, some monitors or an acoustically reflective surface then it might actually provide less gain before feedback.
 
Also be sure to consider the microphone height and spacing in relation to the associated pickup and the '3:1 rule'.

Agreed.  The "best mic" is dependent on the situation.

Is this a general question or is this for a fixed installation?  If an install, how about some info on the type of music, proximity of any band, piano or organ accompaniment, room dimensions including height, etc, etc, etc.

More info will help.

By the way:

The last time I had to use 8 hanging mics, the "choir" was made up of 360 voices...
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eric lenasbunt

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Re: Hanging choir mics with lots of GBF
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2013, 01:40:37 PM »

Thanks gentlemen.
This is for a "choir loft" area in a church. Fixed install. We currently get pretty good coverage out of the 7 AT4033 mics, but they want to get the mic stands out of the way.
It is a vocal choir of 75-100 people. The room is pretty dry and the stage is carpeted. My guess would be 50' wide in the front row, and then an extra 8-10' of width in each of the following rows, 6 total.  30' or so to the ceiling in the front, then each step up is a little closer of course, but never all that close to the drop ceiling.

Usually the only monitors are pretty far away other then a piano feed overhead.

Mics would be positioned well away from the main PA.

Let me know what else I missed.
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Kelvin Gryder

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Re: Hanging choir mics with lots of GBF
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2013, 02:41:14 PM »

We switched from hanging mic's to Audix Microbooms when we moved to a new sanctuary. The cables on the hanging mic's would continually relax or stretch or something and the mic's would rotate out of position. Also they aren't easy to move, if one service you only have half a choir you were stuck with the mics above empty seats. With the microbooms we are able to easily reposition for different configurations. I also found that they are great for other uses, for a recent wedding we had a string quartet. I positioned one of the booms over the quartet and was amazed at the results.
We have 4 but for our standard choir of 30-40 we typically only use 2, but we are only 3 rows deep.
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eric lenasbunt

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Re: Hanging choir mics with lots of GBF
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2013, 02:55:13 PM »

We switched from hanging mic's to Audix Microbooms when we moved to a new sanctuary. The cables on the hanging mic's would continually relax or stretch or something and the mic's would rotate out of position. Also they aren't easy to move, if one service you only have half a choir you were stuck with the mics above empty seats. With the microbooms we are able to easily reposition for different configurations. I also found that they are great for other uses, for a recent wedding we had a string quartet. I positioned one of the booms over the quartet and was amazed at the results.
We have 4 but for our standard choir of 30-40 we typically only use 2, but we are only 3 rows deep.

Sounds good for your situation, but we already have condensers on the ground. The powers that be prefer the hanging solution. I think with the little bracket "cages" on the end of the mic they don't move, so not worried about that.

I am more so trying to make sure I don't lose serious amounts of gain moving in this direction.
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Re: Hanging choir mics with lots of GBF
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2013, 03:09:26 PM »


It is a vocal choir of 75-100 people.

Let me know what else I missed.

The width and depth of the choir area is missing.  Is it three or four rows of 25 people/row, 10 rows of 10 or what?  Are the rows "stepped" or all on one level?  Height of any steps.

Depending on the arrangement of the bodies in the choir, I'm guessing 3-5 mics of the right type(s) in the right place.
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Kelvin Gryder

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Re: Hanging choir mics with lots of GBF
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2013, 04:15:17 PM »

Sounds good for your situation, but we already have condensers on the ground. The powers that be prefer the hanging solution. I think with the little bracket "cages" on the end of the mic they don't move, so not worried about that.

I am more so trying to make sure I don't lose serious amounts of gain moving in this direction.

You may want to go ahead and use some monofilament guide wires tied to the wall to keep the mic's in position. Even with the angled brackets ours still tended to rotate. About every 8-10 weeks I would have to get out the stepladder to reposition. Figured they would stop moving eventually but it went on for years.
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eric lenasbunt

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Re: Hanging choir mics with lots of GBF
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2013, 04:24:06 PM »

The width and depth of the choir area is missing.  Is it three or four rows of 25 people/row, 10 rows of 10 or what?  Are the rows "stepped" or all on one level?  Height of any steps.

Depending on the arrangement of the bodies in the choir, I'm guessing 3-5 mics of the right type(s) in the right place.

People are in 3-4 rows depending on the week and number of folks in that service. And yes, about 20-25 per row. Normal 6-8" step up in each row.
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Re: Hanging choir mics with lots of GBF
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2013, 04:39:01 PM »

People are in 3-4 rows depending on the week and number of folks in that service. And yes, about 20-25 per row. Normal 6-8" step up in each row.

So I'll just estimate the width, shall I?

2'/person x 22.5 people on average =  45 feet

The depth is a bit harder to guesstimate.  Without specific information, let's just say 3'-4'/row, so between 9 and 16 feet deep.  We'll go 16 for the sake of argument.

Three good hanging mics should cover you fine.

Why just three?

You'll want them placed far enough away to get a good blend without so much chance of individual voices predominating.  At the right distance, you'll have pretty broad coverage, so with the 3:1 rule, one right in the middle and one 15' to each side of the middle.

The fewer mics you use, the more headroom and the better the GBF.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 04:44:16 PM by dick rees »
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eric lenasbunt

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Re: Hanging choir mics with lots of GBF
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2013, 05:38:22 PM »

Thanks gentlemen.
This is for a "choir loft" area in a church. Fixed install. We currently get pretty good coverage out of the 7 AT4033 mics, but they want to get the mic stands out of the way.
It is a vocal choir of 75-100 people. The room is pretty dry and the stage is carpeted. My guess would be 50' wide in the front row, and then an extra 8-10' of width in each of the following rows, 6 total.  30' or so to the ceiling in the front, then each step up is a little closer of course, but never all that close to the drop ceiling.


Thanks Dick! I have heard you are the master of this particular topic. Your guesstimating is about right. So I don't make the Iggy list I did actually answer the dimension question a few posts up ;)

Thanks for your help. I do enjoy te less is more philosophy.

That being said, do you have a particular mic or two I should check out?
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Re: Hanging choir mics with lots of GBF
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2013, 05:41:35 PM »

Thanks Dick! I have heard you are the master of this particular topic. Your guesstimating is about right. So I don't make the Iggy list I did actually answer the dimension question a few posts up ;)

Thanks for your help. I do enjoy te less is more philosophy.

That being said, do you have a particular mic or two I should check out?

Eric...

I am by no means a master of this.  I do have some experience, both in what works and what doesn't...probably more in what doesn't.

It's just common sense and kow-towing to the laws of physics.  I'll leave it to the more experienced installers to recommend which particular mics might be best.  There are many from which to choose.
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Thomas Lamb

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Re: Hanging choir mics with lots of GBF
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2013, 05:58:23 PM »

.

Three good hanging mics should cover you fine.

Why just three?

You'll want them placed far enough away to get a good blend without so much chance of individual voices predominating.  At the right distance, you'll have pretty broad coverage, so with the 3:1 rule, one right in the middle and one 15' to each side of the middle.

The fewer mics you use, the more headroom and the better the GBF.

+1 LESS IS DEFINATRLY MORE!!

I do a church choir music publishers show 4 times a year. A large portion of it is talking heads presenting choral music to the audience (all choir directors) every night they do a premier using a choir most are somewhere in the 60-80 member range. They(choir directors) are always amazed at how great the choir sounds and want to know how we get so much out of them. We do service calls and I usually find out they are using 8-10 mics on a 60 person choir and they are canceling. So I shut half of them or more off do proper EQ adjustments and then they sound great!

One of the hanging mics I really like is the AT 853ru. It has worked well in several installs.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Hanging choir mics with lots of GBF
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2013, 06:23:15 PM »

It is a vocal choir of 75-100 people. The room is pretty dry and the stage is carpeted. My guess would be 50' wide in the front row, and then an extra 8-10' of width in each of the following rows, 6 total.  30' or so to the ceiling in the front, then each step up is a little closer of course, but never all that close to the drop ceiling.
So 50' wide in the front row up to almost 100' wide for the sixth row?  And the ceiling 30' above the floor at the front with the floor stepping up a total of 3' to 4' for the top row?  It also sounds like you typically only use 3 or 4 of the rows.
 
Where are the house speakers and any choir monitors located in relation to where the choir mics would be located?  Any practical or aesthetic considerations in where the microphones can or cannot be located?
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eric lenasbunt

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Re: Hanging choir mics with lots of GBF
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2013, 06:46:57 PM »

So 50' wide in the front row up to almost 100' wide for the sixth row?  And the ceiling 30' above the floor at the front with the floor stepping up a total of 3' to 4' for the top row?  It also sounds like you typically only use 3 or 4 of the rows.
 
Where are the house speakers and any choir monitors located in relation to where the choir mics would be located?  Any practical or aesthetic considerations in where the microphones can or cannot be located?

Yes, 40-50' wide and 16-20' deep is really the approximate coverage area. 3-4 rows of singers depending on the week.
 It sounds like 3 good hanging mics may do it.
  Any ideas on what to use?
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Re: Hanging choir mics with lots of GBF
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2013, 07:30:37 PM »

Yes, 40-50' wide and 16-20' deep is really the approximate coverage area. 3-4 rows of singers depending on the week.
 It sounds like 3 good hanging mics may do it.
  Any ideas on what to use?

Since TLamb mentioned the AT 853's, I'll say that I have also used these and found them to perform very, very well. 
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eric lenasbunt

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Re: Hanging choir mics with lots of GBF
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2013, 08:21:07 PM »

Since TLamb mentioned the AT 853's, I'll say that I have also used these and found them to perform very, very well.

Those look to be in the perfect price range. Thanks for the suggestions and refreshers on best practice. You guys always save the day!
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Tim Perry

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Re: Hanging choir mics with lots of GBF
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2013, 10:42:49 PM »

Those look to be in the perfect price range. Thanks for the suggestions and refreshers on best practice. You guys always save the day!

I use the Countryman Isomax II.  (got them used somewhere)

I recommend the CAD CM100 as a nice compromise between price and functionality.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2013, 08:44:36 PM by Tim Perry »
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Brad Weber

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Re: Hanging choir mics with lots of GBF
« Reply #18 on: September 12, 2013, 08:28:58 AM »

Apparently the A-T 853 series has been discontinued and replaced by the U853 series.
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Thomas Lamb

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Re: Hanging choir mics with lots of GBF
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2013, 10:19:26 PM »

Apparently the A-T 853 series has been discontinued and replaced by the U853 series.

You are correct. I was just so used to it being the AT SERIES not the U Uniline series. They have worked well for me many times.
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bigTlamb

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Re: Hanging choir mics with lots of GBF
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2013, 10:19:26 PM »


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