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Author Topic: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job  (Read 48735 times)

Tim McCulloch

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Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2013, 11:12:34 am »

Old Joke:
What makes a Yugo go faster? A tow truck...
Fiat: Fix It Again, Tony

New Joke:
Where is the best place to setup an X32 Mackie SR40 at a wedding ANYWHERE? Doorstop...Punch Bowl... Swimming Pool.... Make up your own... Anywhere but FOH... dumpster

Fixed it for you...

If we're bashing a brand based on a rather tiny reported field failure rate, I can start with Soundcraft.  We *were* a 100% SC shop until we had repeated, catastrophic failures (mostly PSU related).  I don't think I'd celebrated any event in my life like the day we sold the last Venue II after the PSU released the magic smoke.

We became a 100% Yamaha shop that day, and have yet to experience a Yammy analog console failure, and the Yammy digital mixer issues we've had turned out to be low service voltage, which an AVR fixed.  With the "logic" I'm seeing here, I should be bashing Bob Leonard and other Soundcraft owners and/or their mixers based on my 100% negative reliability observations of that brand's professional products, but I don't.  We got out from under our investment and moved on.

We've had an SC48 shit a hard drive right before headline sound check, had a MixRack need mix engine card re-seated, and have experienced a Midas Pro series lock up (band console).

I, like JR, find myself at odds defending a company that I've had some disputes with over the decades.  If the tool does not meet your needs, don't purchase or use it.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 11:15:44 am by Tim McCulloch »
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Scott Wagner

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Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2013, 11:17:12 am »


Scott,
I'm pleased that you have had a good run with your X32's. I'll also say that if the service you provide is as stated on your web site, then you should be very proud of yourself and of your company. I see that you are especially proud of your 18 year 100% on time record, and you should be.
Bob,
I think you got me confused with Scott Bolt; however, I agree with the remainder of your post.
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Scott Wagner
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Dave Bednarski

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Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2013, 12:37:23 pm »

Sorry for delay.  I am now back at my 9-5... plenty of time to be unproductive. 

What Furman unit?

Furman M-8Lx  --  your assumption was correct.  What do you recommend?  Are the S16 in some way, less susceptible to power inadequacies?  These were powered off the same Monster unit - with no issue?

I would encourage you to start using some kind of voltage regulation AS WELL AS learning how to use a Fluke meter to ascertain the viability of the power wherever you go.

Would a "clamp" style meter be practical on the job... or am I am looking to probe outlets?  Both? 

--

I plugged it in back at the office today - no issue.  Do I write this off as a fluke to bad power?  Contact manufacturer?  I just don't have any confidence going into my next important/pressure job (Sept 13th) with it.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2013, 01:02:59 pm »

Sorry for delay.  I am now back at my 9-5... plenty of time to be unproductive. 

Furman M-8Lx  --  your assumption was correct.  What do you recommend?  Are the S16 in some way, less susceptible to power inadequacies?  These were powered off the same Monster unit - with no issue?

Furman AR-1215 Line Voltage Regulator for rack mountable.  TrippLite makes a small "pro-sumer" unit that sells for a quarter the price of the 1215, but it is not rack mountable, just a little cube about 10" on a side.  Both are 15 amp units and should be fine for FOH.

You do not need line voltage regulators for your amps...generally speaking.

As to the Monster units: 

The only thing "Monster-ous" about them is the price.  They are ridiculously over-priced and are not one whit better than the Furman power strip you have.  I say "power strip" because "power conditioner" is a misnomer.  These things provide a bit of surge protection and multiple connection  points...no more.  They do not "condition" anything, neither do they regulate line voltage.

Quote
 

Would a "clamp" style meter be practical on the job... or am I am looking to probe outlets?  Both? 

Probes.  My Fluke meter has a slot at the top of the case which is designed to slip over single wire cables or lugs to read current draw.  That's beyond the scope of my work, so I just use the probes to make sure the voltage is correct and the wiring is proper.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 03:32:10 pm by dick rees »
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Scott Wagner

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Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2013, 01:08:34 pm »

I plugged it in back at the office today - no issue.  Do I write this off as a fluke to bad power?  Contact manufacturer?  I just don't have any confidence going into my next important/pressure job (Sept 13th) with it.
You have no way of determining the causality at this stage.  In order to determine if power issues MAY have had something to do with it, you would have needed to meter the power prior to, during, and after the issue occurred.  Even if you had, there is no guarantee that you would be able to definitively determine if power was the culprit.  At this point, anything you or anyone else has to say about it is a WAG (Wild *ss Guess).  For the next gig (and all gigs for that matter), make sure you have suitable backups in place (or at the very least in the truck).
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Scott Wagner
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Bob Leonard

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Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
« Reply #45 on: August 26, 2013, 03:24:51 pm »

Fixed it for you...

If we're bashing a brand based on a rather tiny reported field failure rate, I can start with Soundcraft.  We *were* a 100% SC shop until we had repeated, catastrophic failures (mostly PSU related).  I don't think I'd celebrated any event in my life like the day we sold the last Venue II after the PSU released the magic smoke.

We became a 100% Yamaha shop that day, and have yet to experience a Yammy analog console failure, and the Yammy digital mixer issues we've had turned out to be low service voltage, which an AVR fixed.  With the "logic" I'm seeing here, I should be bashing Bob Leonard and other Soundcraft owners and/or their mixers based on my 100% negative reliability observations of that brand's professional products, but I don't.  We got out from under our investment and moved on.

We've had an SC48 shit a hard drive right before headline sound check, had a MixRack need mix engine card re-seated, and have experienced a Midas Pro series lock up (band console).

I, like JR, find myself at odds defending a company that I've had some disputes with over the decades.  If the tool does not meet your needs, don't purchase or use it.

You make a good point Tim. I seem to remember the exploding power supply syndrome from years back, and that illustrates the point any company can have a bad run or problem with a product line. I've spent a lot of time behind Soundcraft boards, Ghost, etc. that never had an issue, but the Venue line and it's under designed PS were always special in that regard.
 
No company is 100%, which has been pretty much my stance on the subject at hand all along. The real issue I can't overcome is the history of the manufacturer and overall product reliability. If I were to see the line hold up with minor issues over the next couple of years combined with reputable service locations in more than one state, I'll have to admit my opinion could be changed. That would not clean the taste of IP theft from my mouth, but their products would earn more than a cursory look by me. Until then though, all bets are off.
 
And here's some trivia for you. I had actually sent an email to someone at Behringer who was involved with the rollout of the X32, requesting a demo. I wanted to get a look inside, run some tests and comparisons, etc., and was about one RCH away from buying an X32. This was after some critical posts on my part, so of course Behringer never replied. End of subject for me.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
« Reply #46 on: August 26, 2013, 03:54:32 pm »

We need to separate legacy and historical baggage from actual product performance. No amount of whitewash will cover the spots but that's my personal problem, and I can live with that.

The X-32 is a remarkable engineering achievement but you do not simultaneously deliver robust over-engineered ruggedness and reliability, with sharp pencil deep value cost reduction. Nobody is that good. The two just do not exist in the same price point.

It is what is is. It may even be better than some of the other value offerings it is compared to, but why so much drama and hyperbolic expectations?  We need to see them walk the talk for a few years before making any long term determinations.

Until then good luck to the early adopters, and all of us, since this new lower price point mixer has changed the market dynamic, and lower end sound business. Time will tell if for better or worse, but i can comfortably declare it has changed. 

 JR

PS: Bob who?
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brian maddox

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Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
« Reply #47 on: August 26, 2013, 04:18:40 pm »


If we're bashing a brand based on a rather tiny reported field failure rate, I can start with Soundcraft.  We *were* a 100% SC shop until we had repeated, catastrophic failures (mostly PSU related).  I don't think I'd celebrated any event in my life like the day we sold the last Venue II after the PSU released the magic smoke.

We became a 100% Yamaha shop that day, and have yet to experience a Yammy analog console failure, and the Yammy digital mixer issues we've had turned out to be low service voltage, which an AVR fixed.  With the "logic" I'm seeing here, I should be bashing Bob Leonard and other Soundcraft owners and/or their mixers based on my 100% negative reliability observations of that brand's professional products, but I don't.  We got out from under our investment and moved on.....

I found this post interesting since it was a Carbon Copy of my experience.  Dying Soundcraft power supplies.  Venues [and a Vienna II].  Very painful on site experiences.  Switch to Yamaha.  Not one failure in literally thousands of shows across a myriad of product lines.

To this day i'm traumatized by my Soundcraft experience.  Does that mean all their products are bad?  of course not.  They'd be out of business by now if they were.  My experience happened a LONG time ago, and they've had ample time to correct their mistakes.  But 100 percent of my Catastrophic Nearly Career Ending console failures happened while i was looking at a Soundcraft logo, and i'm just not gonna ever get over that.  Whether that is rational or not really doesn't matter.  It is what it is.

There are plenty of people that have the same visceral reaction to a Behringer logo, and i can totally understand that and understand why.  There are also some things that factor in that have nothing to do with product performance or reliability and everything to do with perceived performance and reliability.  For instance, coming from the High End corporate world i can assure you no one i know is going to be putting an X32 on their show anytime soon, regardless of whether it is the right tool for the job.  In that world you can't afford even the appearance of cutting corners.  If the PM5d dies mid-show, the Sound tech might work again based on the fact that it has a proven reliablility record.  An X32 not so much.

NOw working at a church, i was an early adopter of the X32 and it has worked out very well for us.  But i'm no fool.  i don't expect it to have the longevity of my venerable 01v96s.  Still for us it was cheaper to buy 3 X32s, use 2 and keep one as a spare than any other option out there. 

Except maybe Soundcraft.  Did i mention i have a 'thing' with Soundcraft?  :)
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
« Reply #48 on: August 26, 2013, 04:43:14 pm »

This is an old observation of mine, but I'll repeat it anyhow. Console companies that do not have practical experience with power (heat dissipation) engineering, like that gained from making and selling audio power amps that do not blow up, often underestimate the heat sinking and other requirements for reliable power supply design. 

Just an observation, but some console companies rarely have PS issues, some always have them. Not always an easy stretch for low power audio circuit designers to handle power well.  8)  You can make up your own list of which console companies are in which group. Even console companies with no audio power amps, should figure it out eventually, but it can be a painful journey for customers getting there. Kind of embarrassing when you see a console company selling spare power supplies with new boards as if PS failure is to be expected (perhaps it is for them).   

JR

PS: Note redundant PS are part of high up-time reliability engineering, back-up JIC spare power supplies not so much. Perhaps good business but not solid design. If you think it may blow up, make it stronger.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2013, 04:54:47 pm »

What John said Brian. Ancient history and current events are not apples and oranges. I too had the same power supply problems twice with the Venue series boards, and it really put me off of Soundcraft for quite some time. Now I own an Expression built in China and feel better about the board than any Venue I've ever worked or seen, but only because of the name and the fact the board is using current and proven technology combined with zero reports of catastrophic failures that I can find. I'll settle for fewer bells and whistles as long as that money is spent on reliability and testing. Like a slant 6 I just want the sucker to get me where I'm going every time I turn the key.

The point is that this problem existed many years ago, 15 or more I think, but similar to Crown's amplifier problem we're talking about companies that do NOT have a history of failed products and poor support. I'm all for Behringer's X32 line of products, but I'm also all for not spending money on products I can't and won't trust. And, as I've said in the past congrats to Uli and crew, but one service center and all the pages of text they can write doesn't tell me what 2-3 years of hard service can tell me what the future will bring. I'm all for leading edge, but never been much for bleeding edge.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
« Reply #49 on: August 26, 2013, 04:54:47 pm »


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