ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 13   Go Down

Author Topic: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job  (Read 48722 times)

John Roberts {JR}

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16550
  • Hickory, Mississippi, USA
    • Resotune
Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2013, 06:29:55 pm »

Have I mentioned lately how much I dislike defending Behringer. They have sold a sh__ load of these mixer so of course there will be lots of failures.  Some of them not even their fault, that's life in the world of big numbers. Cars break down, computers break down (a lot), digital consoles break down too.
=====
Not to give my full lecture about managing manufacturing processes but testing is not a major cost, building stuff wrong is the larger cost problem. SPC (statistical process control) is about testing samples not for good/bad pass-fail, but to confirm a process is running in the middle of the good range and tweak it to stay dead center of that range. If you are always running in the center of the good range, you do not experience out of range rejects.

This is a simplification and not every process is amenable to SPC, but we should not think in terms of archaic hand assembled process management where 100% barrier testing was the norm, when talking about modern machine processes.

That said it is a value product so not over-engineered for robustness. It is cheap enough that a backup is not that painful... kind of like running your power amps at 8 ohms so you can double up speaker loads if one breaks, using two X32s together means one will probably still work so you can finish the show, should the inevitable failure happen to you.

I am not advocating Behringer over any other solution, but it is what it is. Serviceable if employed wisely. All equipment is subject to failure.

JR

PS I am familiar with lots of failures, it follows naturally from lots of sales.  I see no evidence yet that the failures are disproportionate wrt sales, and of course this story is still being written. It takes time to determine if a product is reliable over time. We'll see.   
Logged
Don't tune your drums half-ass. Listen to what a properly "cleared" drum sounds like.   http://circularscience.com/

eric lenasbunt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 864
    • Bunt Backline Event Services, LLC
Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2013, 07:48:36 pm »

The bottom line is that many of us cannot trust a brand that proved unreliable on so many prior products.

The reason I cannot buy an X32:
If it fails on a gig like this one does I hear "you should have known better then to bring that _____"

If I bring a Soundcraft or A&H or similar and it fails I hear "wow, weird, must be a power issue" (catch all excuse)

Much like the production company itself, reputation is key. If I bring brands with a reputation for failure people question my rep. Perception is reality and my reality still tells me to stay far away.

I don't care if 100,000 units work if mine is the one with a problem and my show is on the line.

/soapbox somewhat off topic rant
Logged

Chuck Simon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1139
  • Pittsburgh, Pa.
Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2013, 08:31:06 pm »

The bottom line is that many of us cannot trust a brand that proved unreliable on so many prior products.

The reason I cannot buy an X32:
If it fails on a gig like this one does I hear "you should have known better then to bring that _____"

If I bring a Soundcraft or A&H or similar and it fails I hear "wow, weird, must be a power issue" (catch all excuse)

Much like the production company itself, reputation is key. If I bring brands with a reputation for failure people question my rep. Perception is reality and my reality still tells me to stay far away.

I don't care if 100,000 units work if mine is the one with a problem and my show is on the line.

/soapbox somewhat off topic rant

If Berhinger made the best digital board in the world, I'm afraid I would have to settle for the second best.  I think I would still get by. ;)
Logged

Scott Bolt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1413
Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2013, 09:15:45 pm »

I have read every X32 thread I could find for the last 6 months (including the monster thread at SF).

I see no huge failure rate issue based on the number of people posting good experiences about the product, and the number of people posting issues about the product.

In fact, compared to other digital mixers, I see less about the X32.

The X32 is NOT a MIDAS replacement board.  According to Behringer, the design testing for the X32 faders is 300,000 cycles while that of the MIDAS is 1,000,000.  If cost isn't an issue, you can engineer a motorized fader that will essentially last forever, but lets be serious.  Cost is always an issue.

As for SPC, It is my understanding (from discussions with Uli) that Behringer automatically tests each X32 and utilizes parametric information to optimize process control in their factory (which by the way is my area of expertise).

I have often had to explain to people that SPC can not catch everything.  Connectors that are seated improperly, but seated none the less, will give you a perfect pass at the end of assembly.  In fact, it is very likely that the board will work quite some time before something jiggles the connector loose.

Power supplies also have these kinds of issues.  Just because it worked when you tested it, doesn't mean it wont have infant failure later.

It is also my understanding that Behringer is now doing soak testing on every unit before shipping.  This should also reduce the infant failure rate of the electronic components.

I heard one recommendation that having a 2nd X32 for a backup would be in order to prevent this problem.  At $6K, the two X32's are still HALF the list price of of an LS9-32.

Of course, if you want to compare it to the Soundcraft Expression Si at $3500.00, things get a little more grey.

My personal thoughts are that Behringer has earned their current reputation with many seasoned sound guys.  I believe that they have a great product with the X32 line of mixers, but that it is going to take lots of time to clear up decades of screwing up.  This is clear from people like Bob who did tons of research into digital mixers, then decided to go with a Soundcraft board that .... at the time he was just ordering his, was having all kinds of issues with the early firmware.  Despite the bunch of people who reported issues, he trusted the Soundcraft name enough to get one anyway.  Now, he turned out to be right (so far).  From what I have seen, the 1.09 firmware has been quite solid, but my point still holds.

People will give a company like Soundcraft the benefit of the doubt.  Behringer gets no such slack ..... because frankly, they haven't had time to deserve it ...... yet.

I have heard quite a few people who (like myself and many others) have had inexpensive Behringer gear break in the past, but based on the many great reviews of the X32 have purchased one.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I wish Behringer all the luck in the world.  Does anyone here think we would have 16 channel Soundcraft and A&H digital mixers in the $2500 price range if it were not for the Behringer X32?
Logged

eric lenasbunt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 864
    • Bunt Backline Event Services, LLC
Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2013, 09:16:23 pm »

With approximately 30,000 X-32 in service there are bound to be some failures. Of course you don't hear about the other 29,000+ or so that are working just fine. If that means that Bob Leonard or Steve Alves doesn't trust the board, whatever...

Still can't believe I'm defending Behringer products, but I've been won over by what they're trying to do with their company.

I should have quoted this in my post above. My post was pretty much a quick and not so helpful response to this statement.

I will also add that WE DO hear about those 29,000 boards, almost constantly. The "my X32 is the best ever" posts are what is driving these conversations about unreliability. For better or worse (probably worse) everyone likes to be on the giving end of an I Told You So, though I do feel for the OP and wish him the best.
Logged

Tim McCulloch

  • SR Forums
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 21363
  • Wichita, Kansas USA
Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2013, 09:19:24 pm »

If Berhinger made the best digital board in the world, I'm afraid I would have to settle for the second best.  I think I would still get by. ;)

It's a tool.  The purchaser can decide what level of perceived or actual "quality" fits their needs.  While at retail 'perception is reality', commercial end users have a keen awareness of what their needs are and will make allowances in their business model that strike a balance between initial investment and what/how much needs to be done to insure reliability in their client's eyes.

I'm not a champion of Behringer, indeed I have a long memory for what I saw as IP theft, regardless of what the courts ultimately decided along the narrow lines allowed by statute.  We have a stack of their DIs that make great wheel chocks and wedge angle adjusters.  Only time will tell if the X32 is better in that regard, but at least the X32 circuit boards do not appear to be photocopies of another firm's products.

As I mentioned almost a year ago in another forum post, we have a couple of potential opportunities that the X32 would be an ideal candidate for.  For that reason there is now an X32 sitting in our shop and being evaluated by our crew.  If we don't like what we see, we'll move on to other value mixers and see what they're like.  And it could pan out that the opportunities don't develop or morph into things that require a different type of solution, so nothing is a done deal.  Such is business.
Logged
"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Chuck Simon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1139
  • Pittsburgh, Pa.
Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2013, 09:41:35 pm »

I have read every X32 thread I could find for the last 6 months (including the monster thread at SF).

I see no huge failure rate issue based on the number of people posting good experiences about the product, and the number of people posting issues about the product.

In fact, compared to other digital mixers, I see less about the X32.

The X32 is NOT a MIDAS replacement board.  According to Behringer, the design testing for the X32 faders is 300,000 cycles while that of the MIDAS is 1,000,000.  If cost isn't an issue, you can engineer a motorized fader that will essentially last forever, but lets be serious.  Cost is always an issue.

As for SPC, It is my understanding (from discussions with Uli) that Behringer automatically tests each X32 and utilizes parametric information to optimize process control in their factory (which by the way is my area of expertise).

I have often had to explain to people that SPC can not catch everything.  Connectors that are seated improperly, but seated none the less, will give you a perfect pass at the end of assembly.  In fact, it is very likely that the board will work quite some time before something jiggles the connector loose.

Power supplies also have these kinds of issues.  Just because it worked when you tested it, doesn't mean it wont have infant failure later.

It is also my understanding that Behringer is now doing soak testing on every unit before shipping.  This should also reduce the infant failure rate of the electronic components.

I heard one recommendation that having a 2nd X32 for a backup would be in order to prevent this problem.  At $6K, the two X32's are still HALF the list price of of an LS9-32.

Of course, if you want to compare it to the Soundcraft Expression Si at $3500.00, things get a little more grey.

My personal thoughts are that Behringer has earned their current reputation with many seasoned sound guys.  I believe that they have a great product with the X32 line of mixers, but that it is going to take lots of time to clear up decades of screwing up.  This is clear from people like Bob who did tons of research into digital mixers, then decided to go with a Soundcraft board that .... at the time he was just ordering his, was having all kinds of issues with the early firmware.  Despite the bunch of people who reported issues, he trusted the Soundcraft name enough to get one anyway.  Now, he turned out to be right (so far).  From what I have seen, the 1.09 firmware has been quite solid, but my point still holds.

People will give a company like Soundcraft the benefit of the doubt.  Behringer gets no such slack ..... because frankly, they haven't had time to deserve it ...... yet.

I have heard quite a few people who (like myself and many others) have had inexpensive Behringer gear break in the past, but based on the many great reviews of the X32 have purchased one.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I wish Behringer all the luck in the world.  Does anyone here think we would have 16 channel Soundcraft and A&H digital mixers in the $2500 price range if it were not for the Behringer X32?

So Iggy, why don't you just break down and buy the damn thing?  You're  an outsider looking in, giving advice to everyone else who is actually in the game!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 09:56:50 pm by Chuck Simon »
Logged

Bob Leonard

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6807
  • Boston, MA USA
Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2013, 12:36:09 am »

It's possible Chuck that Scott is biding his time and exploring all options prior to his purchase. I know a guy that took over 2 years to go digital, but was still capable of a meaningful discussion prior to owning a digital board. The great thing about America is the freedom to discuss and comment based on personal opinion. Hell, we need something to talk about so it might as well be about our love or hate for Behringer.
Logged
BOSTON STRONG........
Proud Vietnam Veteran

I did a gig for Otis Elevator once. Like every job, it had it's ups and downs.

Corey Scogin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1168
  • Birmingham, AL, US
Re: Any console Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2013, 10:44:38 am »

There are simple (and inexpensive) a/c plug checkers out there.  I used one a few weeks ago to check a guy's home a/c (he was blowing speakers and thought it may be the power).  It was a nice little unit that had a small LCD and could indicate phase switching, safety ground off, ground off, line voltage, and line frequency.  It also had a plug you could put a load on.  I put a 12 amp load on that circuit to see if voltage drop was an issue (was seeing 109 volts at that load).  Frequency was spot on 60Hz.

I would highly recommend this little meter, and wish I could tell you guys the model and make, but I borrowed it from work and don't have it near me.  If anyone is interested I can look it up this week and post it.

Scott, I'd be interested in the make/model of that device.  Sounds quite handy, especially the ability to load the circuit.
Logged

Steve Alves

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 547
  • South Florida
    • South Florida Sound
Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
« Reply #39 on: August 26, 2013, 10:47:17 am »

It's possible Chuck that Scott is biding his time and exploring all options prior to his purchase. I know a guy that took over 2 years to go digital, but was still capable of a meaningful discussion prior to owning a digital board. The great thing about America is the freedom to discuss and comment based on personal opinion. Hell, we need something to talk about so it might as well be about our love or hate for Behringer.

Old Joke:
What makes a Yugo go faster? A tow truck...

New Joke:
Where is the best place to setup an X32 at a wedding? Doorstop...Punch Bowl... Swimming Pool.... Make up your own... Anywhere but FOH...
Logged
Steven Alves
South Florida Sound, Fort Lauderdale, FL
www.southfloridasound.com

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: X32 Failure an Hour Before Wedding Job
« Reply #39 on: August 26, 2013, 10:47:17 am »


Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 13   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.027 seconds with 25 queries.