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Author Topic: Recommended rider language - temporary roof structures  (Read 10168 times)

Charlie Zureki

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Re: Recommended rider language - temporary roof structures
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2013, 10:34:40 pm »

Saying you can walk if you don't think it's safe opens you up a bit more to legal responsibility if it fails and you didn't speak up.

A lawyer may have a better form of legal wording to help with that.  In the end every one gets sued.  Just don't put a bigger target up than you have to.

   Hello,

   Not necessarily.   A true and just Court would understand that if your contract required the fulfillment of the Tech Rider items listed in my first post, that you or no one on your Road crew would  be experts in any of the Engineering Sciences, nor have the time to certify that the Stage Roof is built to the required standard outlined, and, that you, having made the requests, have done everything in your power to see that the Stage Roof is safe per your Show's needs.

   Some areas (Countries/States/Provinces/Counties/Cities)  require structures, even temporary structures, to be inspected by a Building Official or Engineer prior to use.

  The truth...in the US, there is always some risk, even astronomically small risks to anything. Anyone can file a law suit, whether the judge believes the suit has merit is another question altogether.  Negligence or Malice must be apparent.   The Common Law states that if a consumer of an item has exercised caution, used due diligence, and without malice,  and an unforeseen incident occurs, they are guilty of nothing.

  Hammer

   Hammer
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Tom Bourke

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Re: Recommended rider language - temporary roof structures
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2013, 12:52:45 am »

   Hello,

   Not necessarily.   A true and just Court would understand
Unfortunately we have the legal system and not the justice system.  While intent and diligence should count, they don't always protect you.  That's what the lawyers are for.
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Doug Fowler

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Re: Recommended rider language - temporary roof structures
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2013, 01:42:26 am »

  Hello..  I think it's easier to verbalize what someone would accept, than, to list all of the things that someone wouldn't accept.  But ???    ;)

  Hammer

But ... :-)

One sentence would disqualify temporary roof structures supported by portable crank ups.  Why not add it to a rider?  One look when you arrive and you know, no inspections required. 

It's really clear, much like "no Brand X" loudspeakers. 

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Jason Raboin

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Re: Recommended rider language - temporary roof structures
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2013, 02:03:55 am »

So if crank ups are not acceptable, would you refuse to play under this roof?...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDykKz--E9c
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Doug Fowler

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Re: Recommended rider language - temporary roof structures
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2013, 03:36:49 am »

So if crank ups are not acceptable, would you refuse to play under this roof?...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDykKz--E9c

I can't tell much from that video, but the roof structure is not supported by Genie lifts or similar.
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Jason Raboin

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Re: Recommended rider language - temporary roof structures
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2013, 04:23:23 am »

I can't tell much from that video, but the roof structure is not supported by Genie lifts or similar.

That is correct but it is cranked up at each corner and is portable.  I'm not trying to be a wise ass.  I know very little about safe rigging or proper practices for temporary structures.  Im in the camp that would love to have something definitive to put in my riders.

I have done the gig in the video twice and there was nothing that raised a red flag for me.
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Charlie Zureki

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Re: Recommended rider language - temporary roof structures
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2013, 07:12:26 am »

Unfortunately we have the legal system and not the justice system.  While intent and diligence should count, they don't always protect you.  That's what the lawyers are for.

   Lawyers cannot protect you from a Lawsuit being filed. They CAN minimize the damage in certain instances... and that is by CLEARLY identifying for the Court that as a TM, PM, Crew member, or the Act/Group has done everything within their scope of expertise, to assure that the equipment and staging is safely designed, built and used as intended. 

   While there have been Acts and their Management that have been named in Lawsuits in regards to staging incidents that have resulted in injuries or deaths of Crew members or attendees... Please name one Act that was found guilty, that DID NOT directly contribute to the incident by negligence or malice.

  Hammer
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Ray Aberle

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Re: Recommended rider language - temporary roof structures
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2013, 11:32:37 am »

That is correct but it is cranked up at each corner and is portable.  I'm not trying to be a wise ass.  I know very little about safe rigging or proper practices for temporary structures.  Im in the camp that would love to have something definitive to put in my riders.

I have done the gig in the video twice and there was nothing that raised a red flag for me.
The concern is using things like Genie lifts, outdoors, and the Genie lifts are often specifically stated for indoor use only. Even more interesting... there's some interesting discussion going on over here about this recent (Shelby) failure, and they're looking closely at the pictures on the contractor's website, and have determined that they have been using contractor material lifts, not the SuperTower entertainment lifts.

The stage shown in the YouTube clip indicates that the roof is (most likely) being supported by ground support bases, appropriate square trussing with sleeves and chain hoists to raise it up, and guy wires to secure it. I believe that (when properly configured and deployed, I am not a rigger, consult your local professional) there's less of a chance of those going over as they are more suited to this purpose.

-Ray
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Recommended rider language - temporary roof structures
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2013, 11:56:47 am »

So if crank ups are not acceptable, would you refuse to play under this roof?...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDykKz--E9c

That roof is certainly much better than the same sized roof would be supported with Genie lifts. It is hard to see how the towers are anchored, but it looks like they are just sitting on the temporary wood deck. This makes it equivalent to a giant pop up tent.

The climbing truss is good, but there is no connection between the towers on the ground level to stabilize the system, nor is there any cross bracing. The fact that it is manual cranks that lift rather than motors it is less important from a safety point of view than the fact that the system as a whole is not connected or braced.

If individual climbing towers are used there should be a large outrigger base to keep it stabile. If no outriggers are used the 4 towers should be connected by a truss frame box at the base as well as at the roof.

Mac (again, not a rigger)
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Jason Raboin

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Re: Recommended rider language - temporary roof structures
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2013, 09:13:54 pm »

So would any of you refuse to play under the roof in the video?  The series has hosted Brian Wilson, Willie Nelson, and a bunch of other acts of that caliber just this year.
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Jason Raboin
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Re: Recommended rider language - temporary roof structures
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2013, 09:13:54 pm »


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