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Author Topic: Opinions on Stadium Installation - Check my Math  (Read 5657 times)

Cailen Waddell

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Opinions on Stadium Installation - Check my Math
« on: August 01, 2013, 03:25:22 pm »

Background, The organization I work for is upgrading sound in our soccer stadium.  We currently have a combination of community R series boxes, primarily the R6-51 on main seating areas with a couple of other boxes for fill.  It is essentially a mono cluster above a scoreboard. (http://www.communitypro.com/files/literature/spec%20sheets/R6-51_SPEC.pdf?phpMyAdmin=c9cc5b3953d87385dc22218d669e7aab)  Max spl is listed as 145db. 

I am primarily a theater person, and lighting at that, but I am increasingly having to educate myself on sound, and feel I have a good handle on concepts.  Some of my sound friends tell me I am better than I think, but I like to think I barely have a Journeyman's level of knowledge.

One proposal for the stadium includes the Daktronics Sportsound 2000HD (http://www.daktronics.com/Web%20Documents/HSPR-Documents/Sportsound%202000HD%20Product%20Specification.pdf) Max spl is listed as 142 db. 

The current system is not loud enough for our current clients (music playback and announcers).  I didn't install the system, but do some PM of current components, the current speaker processor is not limiting the system correctly, drivers are being blown, etc by the clients who use it.  Regardless, the sytem isn't sufficient and needs to go louder.  There is money to replace right now.

The suggested solution appears to have better coverage of the stadium than our current deployment, but doesn't appear to get appreciably louder.  Other concerns include comb filtering from the odd (to me) driver layout inside the box. 

Question 1 - am I reading the spec's correctly?
Question 2 - I know we can't know the processing of the proposed box, but I can see on the one EASE model they provided that there are hot areas in front of the box, almost 15 db hotter in streaking lines coming from the speakers that says comb filtering to me.  Is this a valid concern?  I suspect that this will affect intelligibility and make intelligibility worse or no better than the R series currently installed

I am working with a local vendor to provide a similarly budgeted solution, and trying to convince the decision makers that just because a solution is easy, doesn't make it right.  My solution involves 2 Danley J3 boxes with the possibility of a couple fill boxes (but I don't think I will need the fill boxes).  I did some modeling in DDT 3D and was able to get better, more consistent coverage with increased headroom.

Question 3 - If we go my way, the boxes will go above an existing scoreboard, opposite a proposed video board.  Will it be weird for sound to come from the opposite side of the field?  I don't think so, but want opinions.

Thanks all for reading this rambling post, I'm an admitted Danley fanboy and we use their products in 3 other venues in town, so I am familiar with them, and think that they are great when they are the right tool for the the job.  This appears to be one of the occasions.  Are there other solutions I should also consider?
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Opinions on Stadium Installation - Check my Math
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2013, 03:36:53 pm »

Background, The organization I work for is upgrading sound in our soccer stadium.  We currently have a combination of community R series boxes, primarily the R6-51 on main seating areas with a couple of other boxes for fill.  It is essentially a mono cluster above a scoreboard. (http://www.communitypro.com/files/literature/spec%20sheets/R6-51_SPEC.pdf?phpMyAdmin=c9cc5b3953d87385dc22218d669e7aab)  Max spl is listed as 145db. 

I am primarily a theater person, and lighting at that, but I am increasingly having to educate myself on sound, and feel I have a good handle on concepts.  Some of my sound friends tell me I am better than I think, but I like to think I barely have a Journeyman's level of knowledge.

One proposal for the stadium includes the Daktronics Sportsound 2000HD (http://www.daktronics.com/Web%20Documents/HSPR-Documents/Sportsound%202000HD%20Product%20Specification.pdf) Max spl is listed as 142 db. 

The current system is not loud enough for our current clients (music playback and announcers).  I didn't install the system, but do some PM of current components, the current speaker processor is not limiting the system correctly, drivers are being blown, etc by the clients who use it.  Regardless, the sytem isn't sufficient and needs to go louder.  There is money to replace right now.

The suggested solution appears to have better coverage of the stadium than our current deployment, but doesn't appear to get appreciably louder.  Other concerns include comb filtering from the odd (to me) driver layout inside the box. 

Question 1 - am I reading the spec's correctly?
Question 2 - I know we can't know the processing of the proposed box, but I can see on the one EASE model they provided that there are hot areas in front of the box, almost 15 db hotter in streaking lines coming from the speakers that says comb filtering to me.  Is this a valid concern?  I suspect that this will affect intelligibility and make intelligibility worse or no better than the R series currently installed

I am working with a local vendor to provide a similarly budgeted solution, and trying to convince the decision makers that just because a solution is easy, doesn't make it right.  My solution involves 2 Danley J3 boxes with the possibility of a couple fill boxes (but I don't think I will need the fill boxes).  I did some modeling in DDT 3D and was able to get better, more consistent coverage with increased headroom.

Question 3 - If we go my way, the boxes will go above an existing scoreboard, opposite a proposed video board.  Will it be weird for sound to come from the opposite side of the field?  I don't think so, but want opinions.

Thanks all for reading this rambling post, I'm an admitted Danley fanboy and we use their products in 3 other venues in town, so I am familiar with them, and think that they are great when they are the right tool for the the job.  This appears to be one of the occasions.  Are there other solutions I should also consider?

Go to Danley, go directly to Danley.  Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

Danley all the way if your Community stuff can't cut it.
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Cailen Waddell

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Re: Opinions on Stadium Installation - Check my Math
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2013, 03:46:42 pm »

Go to Danley, go directly to Danley.  Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

Danley all the way if your Community stuff can't cut it.

Thanks Dick, I find out tomorrow if the budget will work out.  If it won't I am tempted to repair the community, process it properly and wait until we can afford an actual upgrade.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Opinions on Stadium Installation - Check my Math
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2013, 05:50:49 pm »

One of the problems with a "endzone" system is that (depending on the location of the speakers and the seats), it can be quite a bit "hotter" right in front of the scoreboard.

This is whay large horns are important-as they reduce the levels outside the horn pattern.  Small horns only control the higher freq-and it is the lower freq that are often the problem-hence the need for a larger horn.

Consider that in any system you are looking at.

Other things to consider when looking at stadiums is how well the sound starts as a single source and therefore holds up better over distance.

Here is a link to a recent install (done last week) that Tom took. 

They range from around 700-800' away.  Notice especially in the next to last one (with his daughter in it) how much the wind was blowing and how little it affected the sound.  Think of that the next time you listen to a sound system when the wind is blowing-especially a distance away.

These are completely unretouched audio tracks and directly from the mic in the camera.

Use headphones to get the best effect.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nmmmdtum82lyig9/QnEaYWlnDE

The system was J3's with TH812s for subs and J4's for HF extension to the far seats (to help overcome air attenuation loses.  We were flat to just beyond 10Khz at the furthest seats.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 05:53:27 pm by Ivan Beaver »
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Cailen Waddell

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Re: Opinions on Stadium Installation - Check my Math
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2013, 06:14:21 pm »

Thanks Ivan, this aligns with my thinking too. I was emailed this picture today and it confirms my suspicions that perhaps the layout and design of the speaker is questionable.
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Cailen Waddell

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Re: Opinions on Stadium Installation - Check my Math
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2013, 06:16:37 pm »

Also, with some investigative internetting, it appears the cabinets are self powered with speaker power modules. I am concerned about those sitting outdoors in a scoreboard and working in the heat for 10 years.... I have always insisted upon good climate control for amp rooms, so I don't feel right about that either.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Opinions on Stadium Installation - Check my Math
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2013, 06:20:55 pm »

Also, with some investigative internetting, it appears the cabinets are self powered with speaker power modules. I am concerned about those sitting outdoors in a scoreboard and working in the heat for 10 years.... I have always insisted upon good climate control for amp rooms, so I don't feel right about that either.
I don't like the idea of electronics outside either-no matter who makes them.  Even if out of direct rain-the humidity can seep in and start to cause problems.

If the amps need to be close to the speakers (never a bad idea), then a climate controlled rack near them is a good idea.  They can get expensive-but they do work.

On one job the installers were using the rack (turned to max cold) as the fridge for their drinks-this was before the amps got installed.  They waited till the last minute to do that-------------Wonder why?
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Craig Hauber

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Re: Opinions on Stadium Installation - Check my Math
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2013, 02:16:25 am »

Perhaps you should call community and see if the box is properly processed and amp'd.
Since you already have one then maybe add another and re-aim to have one covering each side of the stadium.  Maybe also add in an R6 basshorn to give more LF capability and take the strain off the existing box.
I've always found R-series to do quite well if they are deployed properly.

Anyone know who OEM's the daktronics packaged systems?  The few I've heard have always seemed underpowered for their use, (maybe the sales dept inflates their capabilities a bit?) 
Since they basically own the scoreboard industry many athletic departments probably think its just easier to stay with one vendor.  We all know that excelling at LED display technology means you can handle something easy like sound systems :-)

Also I know it's probably not acoustically "correct" but personally I seem to enjoy the "feeling" of a distributed system when at the game, end-zone or outfield clusters always seem very one-sided and like something is missing
(probably from years of doing concert audio with distinct L and R PA stack :-)

Background, The organization I work for is upgrading sound in our soccer stadium.  We currently have a combination of community R series boxes, primarily the R6-51 on main seating areas with a couple of other boxes for fill.  It is essentially a mono cluster above a scoreboard. (http://www.communitypro.com/files/literature/spec%20sheets/R6-51_SPEC.pdf?phpMyAdmin=c9cc5b3953d87385dc22218d669e7aab)  Max spl is listed as 145db. 

I am primarily a theater person, and lighting at that, but I am increasingly having to educate myself on sound, and feel I have a good handle on concepts.  Some of my sound friends tell me I am better than I think, but I like to think I barely have a Journeyman's level of knowledge.

One proposal for the stadium includes the Daktronics Sportsound 2000HD (http://www.daktronics.com/Web%20Documents/HSPR-Documents/Sportsound%202000HD%20Product%20Specification.pdf) Max spl is listed as 142 db. 

The current system is not loud enough for our current clients (music playback and announcers).  I didn't install the system, but do some PM of current components, the current speaker processor is not limiting the system correctly, drivers are being blown, etc by the clients who use it.  Regardless, the sytem isn't sufficient and needs to go louder.  There is money to replace right now.

The suggested solution appears to have better coverage of the stadium than our current deployment, but doesn't appear to get appreciably louder.  Other concerns include comb filtering from the odd (to me) driver layout inside the box. 

Question 1 - am I reading the spec's correctly?
Question 2 - I know we can't know the processing of the proposed box, but I can see on the one EASE model they provided that there are hot areas in front of the box, almost 15 db hotter in streaking lines coming from the speakers that says comb filtering to me.  Is this a valid concern?  I suspect that this will affect intelligibility and make intelligibility worse or no better than the R series currently installed

I am working with a local vendor to provide a similarly budgeted solution, and trying to convince the decision makers that just because a solution is easy, doesn't make it right.  My solution involves 2 Danley J3 boxes with the possibility of a couple fill boxes (but I don't think I will need the fill boxes).  I did some modeling in DDT 3D and was able to get better, more consistent coverage with increased headroom.

Question 3 - If we go my way, the boxes will go above an existing scoreboard, opposite a proposed video board.  Will it be weird for sound to come from the opposite side of the field?  I don't think so, but want opinions.

Thanks all for reading this rambling post, I'm an admitted Danley fanboy and we use their products in 3 other venues in town, so I am familiar with them, and think that they are great when they are the right tool for the the job.  This appears to be one of the occasions.  Are there other solutions I should also consider?
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Opinions on Stadium Installation - Check my Math
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2013, 06:55:11 am »



Also I know it's probably not acoustically "correct" but personally I seem to enjoy the "feeling" of a distributed system when at the game, end-zone or outfield clusters always seem very one-sided and like something is missing
(probably from years of doing concert audio with distinct L and R PA stack :-)
A distributed system-when done correctly-can have many advantages over an end zone system.  However it requires a lot more infrastructure and the cost can be quit a bit higher than a single point.

And when I say "done correctly"- that means minimal overlap and cross contamination to the other side of the field.

This requires large horns to keep the energy where it needs to be.  If not-you have the typical echos associated with stadiums-(which some people think is "part" of the experience) but really screws with the clarity.  Personally I like it MUCH better when you only hear the sound once.
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Ivan Beaver
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Tommy Peel

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Re: Opinions on Stadium Installation - Check my Math
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2013, 11:21:07 am »

Ivan, these DSL stadium install videos are mind blowing. I've gotta see(hear) one in person someday.
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Re: Opinions on Stadium Installation - Check my Math
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2013, 11:21:07 am »


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