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Author Topic: Yamaha CL / RIO / Dante clock master  (Read 20201 times)

Cliff Fuller

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Yamaha CL / RIO / Dante clock master
« on: July 18, 2013, 03:59:25 pm »

I'm using the Dante Controller software and I'm seeing the following lines in the "Events" tab quite frequently.


"Clock master change on Primary: Device Y001-Yamaha-CL5-0618da no longer clock master"
"Clock master change on Secondary: Device Y001-Yamaha-CL5-0618da no longer clock master"

"Clock master change on Primary: Device Y001-Yamaha-CL5-0618da is now clock master"
"Clock master change on Secondary: Device Y001-Yamaha-CL5-0618da is now clock master"


Can anybody fill me in as to what's happening? Thanks ....
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Josh Millward

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Re: Yamaha CL / RIO / Dante clock master
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2013, 07:24:58 pm »

I'm using the Dante Controller software...

Can anybody fill me in as to what's happening? Thanks ....
Yes, your Dante clock master is changing.

I would expect that you could select one of the Dante devices on your network to be the Preferred Master, or you can just let it change. Theoretically, it shouldn't change often, but may change as devices come onto the network and leave the network.

You should not be able to hear this change. As such, it doesn't really matter that much.
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Josh Millward
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Cliff Fuller

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Re: Yamaha CL / RIO / Dante clock master
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2013, 09:07:32 pm »

Yes, your Dante clock master is changing.

I would expect that you could select one of the Dante devices on your network to be the Preferred Master, or you can just let it change. Theoretically, it shouldn't change often, but may change as devices come onto the network and leave the network.

You should not be able to hear this change. As such, it doesn't really matter that much.
Thanks Josh, I see that it's changing, but every 5 minutes or so is usual?

My concern is about the network switches in use (NetGear JGS516) and their capability to support the activity.
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Yamaha CL / RIO / Dante clock master
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2013, 09:13:58 pm »

Thanks Josh, I see that it's changing, but every 5 minutes or so is usual?

My concern is about the network switches in use (NetGear JGS516) and their capability to support the activity.

The system is designed to be fault tolerant of clock source changes, but every 5 minutes seems excessive. I would be concerned. You should contact Yamaha tech support. Is that switch on Yamaha's list of acceptable switches? Have you defined the secondary clock sources?

Mac
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Cliff Fuller

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Re: Yamaha CL / RIO / Dante clock master
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2013, 09:49:25 pm »

The system is designed to be fault tolerant of clock source changes, but every 5 minutes seems excessive. I would be concerned. You should contact Yamaha tech support. Is that switch on Yamaha's list of acceptable switches? Have you defined the secondary clock sources?

Mac
I don't believe that I hear anything but warnings and errors in the log indicate something isn't right.

I haven't seen a specific list of switches (other than the Ciscos they use), perhaps I've missed it. Having spoken to Yamaha,  they don't "endorse" any switches; there are too many to check. There is no VLAN involved, only 2 CL5s and 2 RIO 3224d boxes.

Yes, the secondary network has the same clock source designated.
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Yamaha CL / RIO / Dante clock master
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2013, 10:14:07 pm »

Yes, the secondary network has the same clock source designated.

Not secondary network, secondary clock source. You should be able to set up a hierarchy of preferred master and secondary master clocks so that if the component that is the master clock fails the system will go to the secondary clock source.

In any case, that many clock changes would seem to be a problem. You should talk to Yamaha tech support about it. You might also ask if they have a list of approved switches, I have been led to believe they do.

Mac
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: Yamaha CL / RIO / Dante clock master
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2013, 10:16:17 pm »

...
"Clock master change on Primary: Device Y001-Yamaha-CL5-0618da no longer clock master"
"Clock master change on Secondary: Device Y001-Yamaha-CL5-0618da no longer clock master"

"Clock master change on Primary: Device Y001-Yamaha-CL5-0618da is now clock master"
"Clock master change on Secondary: Device Y001-Yamaha-CL5-0618da is now clock master"
...

I'm not knowledgable about dante, nor about the CL consoles, but I find it curious that the change appears to be from and to the exact same device.  I assume the red text above is meant to be a unique identifier of the device that is master.  If the clock was changing between consoles, or from console to I/O box, I would expect different red text.

It looks to me like the warning is saying "The master has changed from Bob to Bob, i.e. there was really no change.  Exactly what event monitored by the software triggers this message is unknown, but it could be a bug.  Maybe there is some attempt to measure clock drift, or some other anomaly like short dropouts, and then the system looks for  a new clock.  Yamaha tech support hopefully can help.

Does 0618da show up as an identifier for one of your CL5's in some setup screen?  Hardcoded 'serial number' or user defined option? Is it possible both CL5s have the same identifier?

Edit: Seems like you'd want one CL5 as the master, the other as the secondary,...  Or if the RIO boxes have clocks, and following the 'studio rule of thumb to use the primary AD converter clock to reduce jitter', set one of the RIOs as primary clock.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 04:30:15 am by Mark McFarlane »
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Mark McFarlane
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Josh Millward

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Re: Yamaha CL / RIO / Dante clock master
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2013, 10:31:21 am »

Thanks Josh, I see that it's changing, but every 5 minutes or so is usual?

My concern is about the network switches in use (NetGear JGS516) and their capability to support the activity.
I would not expect it to change that often.

According to what it says on Netgear's website about the NETGEAR NETSAFE JGS516 network switch, I am lead to believe that it should be a suitable option for what you are doing.

In the Dante Controller software, do you actually have one of your devices selected to be the "Preferred Clock Master"?
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Josh Millward
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Riley Casey

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Re: Yamaha CL / RIO / Dante clock master
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2013, 10:43:34 am »

I just bought four of these Netgear GS110TP-100NAS ProSafe GS110TP Ethernet Switch - 8 Port - 2 Slot on the advice of my Yamaha vendor as being recommended by Audinate.  We specifically needed the fiber port though.

I would not expect it to change that often.

According to what it says on Netgear's website about the NETGEAR NETSAFE JGS516 network switch, I am lead to believe that it should be a suitable option for what you are doing.

In the Dante Controller software, do you actually have one of your devices selected to be the "Preferred Clock Master"?

Cliff Fuller

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Re: Yamaha CL / RIO / Dante clock master
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2013, 04:06:17 pm »

Mac Kerr,
"Not secondary network, secondary clock source. You should be able to set up a hierarchy of preferred master and secondary master clocks so that if the component that is the master clock fails the system will go to the secondary clock source."

I would do this via Dante Controller?


Mark McFarlane,
"I'm not knowledgable about dante, nor about the CL consoles, but I find it curious that the change appears to be from and to the exact same device.  I assume the red text above is meant to be a unique identifier of the device that is master.  If the clock was changing between consoles, or from console to I/O box, I would expect different red text.

Does 0618da show up as an identifier for one of your CL5's in some setup screen?  Hardcoded 'serial number' or user defined option? Is it possible both CL5s have the same identifier?

Edit: Seems like you'd want one CL5 as the master, the other as the secondary"

Yes, that red nomenclature is the device identifier. No, separate identifiers.


Josh Millward,
"In the Dante Controller software, do you actually have one of your devices selected to be the "Preferred Clock Master"?"

Yes, I found that if both boards are set as "preferred master" we get audio drop-outs. And thank-you for confirming the NetGear switch.
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Scott Helmke

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Re: Yamaha CL / RIO / Dante clock master
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2013, 09:19:20 am »

By default a CL console will make itself not only "preferred master" but also set "slave to external word clock". Not what you want if you're running more than one console.

Go to the word clock page on the CL and change the clock from internal to Dante, which will turn off the "slave to external word clock" setting on the Dante side.

Also if you're running more than one CL console you should assign them different console numbers (Dante Setup page on the console). I believe that only affects the naming scheme, but since naming is everything in Dante it's an important setting.
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Cliff Fuller

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Re: Yamaha CL / RIO / Dante clock master
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2013, 02:56:24 am »

Go to the word clock page on the CL and change the clock from internal to Dante, which will turn off the "slave to external word clock" setting on the Dante side.

Using 2 CLs shouldn't one of them be set to internal? That one becoming the master clock?
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Scott Helmke

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Re: Yamaha CL / RIO / Dante clock master
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2013, 08:35:21 am »

Using 2 CLs shouldn't one of them be set to internal? That one becoming the master clock?

In theory the Dante network can switch clock sources too fast for anybody to notice. But given a free choice I tend to want one of the Rio racks to be preferred master, since they are simpler devices and therefore probably less likely to crash or have software problems.

EDIT: Also, clock jitter can only be a problem at the A/D and D/A stage... which means that all the critical clocking happens in the Rio racks, *not* in the console. So why would anybody want to give the console priority?
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Riley Casey

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Re: Yamaha CL / RIO / Dante clock master
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2013, 01:19:21 pm »

So after reading this post and nodding "sounds plausible" I came in to today's venue and used the Dante controller to select the clock master as the first rio box rather than the CL5 as it had been the previous two days. Immediately got a red flag warning in the Dante log about the change followed a few minutes later by a yellow banner on the console display about clock source error followed shortly there after by a total drop out of sound from the rio's for about a second in duration. I quickly set the console back to clock source and all has been good. What to think of this turn of events?

In theory the Dante network can switch clock sources too fast for anybody to notice. But given a free choice I tend to want one of the Rio racks to be preferred master, since they are simpler devices and therefore probably less likely to crash ...

Mark McFarlane

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Re: Yamaha CL / RIO / Dante clock master
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2013, 03:19:04 pm »

So after reading this post and nodding "sounds plausible" I came in to today's venue and used the Dante controller to select the clock master as the first rio box rather than the CL5 as it had been the previous two days. Immediately got a red flag warning in the Dante log about the change followed a few minutes later by a yellow banner on the console display about clock source error followed shortly there after by a total drop out of sound from the rio's for about a second in duration. I quickly set the console back to clock source and all has been good. What to think of this turn of events?

I'm not a CL5 or Dante user, but have a few years in the studio with clocking issues...

Did you set the CL master word clock source to Dante?  (Page 288 of the manual).  Is the RIO master connected through the normal Dante jack on the back of the CL5, or some other digital card, in which case you need to set the specific card as the clock source.
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Mark McFarlane
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Scott Helmke

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Re: Yamaha CL / RIO / Dante clock master
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2013, 05:31:26 pm »

So after reading this post and nodding "sounds plausible" I came in to today's venue and used the Dante controller to select the clock master as the first rio box rather than the CL5 as it had been the previous two days. Immediately got a red flag warning in the Dante log about the change followed a few minutes later by a yellow banner on the console display about clock source error followed shortly there after by a total drop out of sound from the rio's for about a second in duration. I quickly set the console back to clock source and all has been good. What to think of this turn of events?

Since we don't know exactly which steps you took, I'll assume the worst of you.   ::) 

You need to change the console, on its own screen, to clock from the Dante network. That will turn off the "slave to external clock" option as found in the Dante controller software. Then, from within the Dante software, you want to uncheck "preferred master" for the console and check it for one of the Rio racks. This is how I do it, and I've never had a problem as long as I followed those steps.
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Cliff Fuller

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Re: Yamaha CL / RIO / Dante clock master
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2013, 12:09:58 pm »

So I've got both CLs set to receive clock from the first RIO box (preferred master), no secondary clock source yet. I've also managed to patch both CLs via Dante Controller, and my laptop I/O via Dante Virtual Soundcard. I may learn to like this .  ::)

I've discovered that re-naming devices can cause some pain, I'll tackle it on another day.

I'm still puzzled by the following small sample of log entries:


1374619012521   Information   ""   "Clock master change on Primary: Device Y001-Yamaha-Rio3224-D no longer clock master"
1374619012522   Information   ""   "Clock master change on Secondary: Device Y001-Yamaha-Rio3224-D no longer clock master"
1374619012529   Information   ""   "Device 001DC1062208 (device name not known) is no longer a grandmaster"
1374619012699   Warning   ""   "Device 001DC1062208 (device name not known) is now a grandmaster"
1374619012756   Error   ""   "Clock master change on Primary: Device Y001-Yamaha-Rio3224-D is now clock master"
1374619012757   Error   ""   "Clock master change on Secondary: Device Y001-Yamaha-Rio3224-D is now clock master"
1374619022756   Information   "Y001-Yamaha-Rio3224-D"   "Timed out 3 times awaiting a reply to message 'HaRemote' from Y001-Yamaha-Rio3224-D, giving up."
1374619022757   Information   "Y002-Yamaha-Rio3224-D"   "Timed out 3 times awaiting a reply to message 'HaRemote' from Y002-Yamaha-Rio3224-D, giving up."
1374619022953   Information   "Y002-Yamaha-CL5-066b20"   "Timed out 3 times awaiting a reply to message 'HaRemote' from Y002-Yamaha-CL5-066b20, giving up."
1374619023007   Information   "Y001-Yamaha-CL5-0618da"   "Timed out 3 times awaiting a reply to message 'HaRemote' from Y001-Yamaha-CL5-0618da, giving up."
1374619624767   Information   ""   "Device 001DC1062208 (device name not known) is no longer a grandmaster"


I've still got to down-grade firmware, I assume the bits about the "HaRemote" are indicative of the bugs there. The entries for "Device 001DC1062208" I don't have a clue about. I'm still working on the time stamps, too (re: 1374619624767).

Thanks to all whom have responded.   :)
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Riley Casey

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Re: Yamaha CL / RIO / Dante clock master
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2013, 12:14:09 pm »

Never a bad starting place  ;D ;D ;D

I made the mistake of ASSuming that the Dante controller ruled the Dante universe and obviated  the traditional Yamaha native clock assignments onboard the console.  Thanks for the reminder to read twice, click once.  Still having no luck getting a path into my MacBook from the Dante stream via DVS but that another fight.

Since we don't know exactly which steps you took, I'll assume the worst of you.   ::) 

You need to change the console, on its own screen, to clock from the Dante network. That will turn off the "slave to external clock" option as found in the Dante controller software. Then, from within the Dante software, you want to uncheck "preferred master" for the console and check it for one of the Rio racks. This is how I do it, and I've never had a problem as long as I followed those steps.

Cliff Fuller

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Re: Yamaha CL / RIO / Dante clock master
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2013, 12:40:58 pm »

Still having no luck getting a path into my MacBook from the Dante stream via DVS but that another fight.

Check your Java version. For your network IP use DHCP, your machine will assume the proper subnet (given no real DHCP server). Also think about "transmitters" and "receivers"
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Yamaha CL / RIO / Dante clock master
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2013, 02:06:17 pm »

I've still got to down-grade firmware, I assume the bits about the "HaRemote" are indicative of the bugs there. The entries for "Device 001DC1062208" I don't have a clue about. I'm still working on the time stamps, too (re: 1374619624767).

I would fix the firmware version first, and then see what happens with other problems. Using a known bad version of firmware is the wrong place to start looking for solutions.

Mac
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Yamaha CL / RIO / Dante clock master
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2013, 02:06:17 pm »


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