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Author Topic: Good brands vs bad brands  (Read 9649 times)

Steven Fondren

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2013, 10:54:38 am »

What's the rationale for placing the sub-woofer in that particular location?

It's the only non-visible location and the church folks don't want to see a big black box sitting out.
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Steven Fondren

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2013, 11:19:26 am »

There is a lot to consider before worrying about the speaker brand.  It seems to make sense to first verify that what you can physically and/or financially manage will be able to support the goals involved, otherwise you seem to potentially be spending money that might be better invested elsewhere.

Perhaps the first thing to do in that process is to establish the goals and expectations.  What are your existing mains?  How do you use the system?  What improvements in performance or added capabilities are you expecting from adding a sub?  What does that relate in terms of the subwoofer performance required if driven by the currently undefined existing crossover and amplifier?
 
Have you looked under the stage to verify the construction and what space is actually possible?  Both the face framing and structural framing of the stage itself might make the actual usable space smaller than you think.  Having to create some type of sealed enclosure in which to install the subwoofer is often appropriate or even required for under stage applications, what might that do for the available dimensions and budget?   Then there is figuring out how to get the cabling to the subwoofer.  It might be prudent to make sure you have a good understanding of what the actual installation of a subwoofer under the stage would entail before proceeding in that direction.
 
Once you have a better idea of what you need or want the subwoofer to do and of any actual limitations on size, etc. then you will have a better basis for selecting specific products.  Otherwise regardless of the name on the box you could simply end up with yet another box that doesn't work for the application.

The stage is in the rough in phase but well beyond the point of changing it's height.  I have discussed placement with the contractor so size and location should be good.  As for the cabling, I ran and connected a new snaked when the stage was much lower so getting the wiring down there shouldn't be too big of a problem--a litle time consuming and very hot (wires have to come through the attic space first) but doable.

As for goals and expectations...this is a little country church with country people.  Not a lot of expectation to be quite honest.  We have decent system for our size church--2 JBL AC28/95's for mains and a Yamaha LS9 board.  The main amp is a Yamaha.  I put this in a few years back when our old board was stolen.  The auditorium is about 45x70.  The donated amp/crossover is a Crown xls2000. The person who actually "runs" the soundboard doesn't understand anything he is doing other than controlling the volume--and doesn't do that well.  So...again...the expectations are very little.  I would simply like to be able to get a fuller sound.  And had the equipment not been donated, It would likely have never come up.  Thanks

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2013, 11:45:37 am »

There is a lot to consider before worrying about the speaker brand.  It seems to make sense to first verify that what you can physically and/or financially manage will be able to support the goals involved, otherwise you seem to potentially be spending money that might be better invested elsewhere.

Perhaps the first thing to do in that process is to establish the goals and expectations.  What are your existing mains?  How do you use the system?  What improvements in performance or added capabilities are you expecting from adding a sub?  What does that relate in terms of the subwoofer performance required if driven by the currently undefined existing crossover and amplifier?
 
Have you looked under the stage to verify the construction and what space is actually possible?  Both the face framing and structural framing of the stage itself might make the actual usable space smaller than you think.  Having to create some type of sealed enclosure in which to install the subwoofer is often appropriate or even required for under stage applications, what might that do for the available dimensions and budget?   Then there is figuring out how to get the cabling to the subwoofer.  It might be prudent to make sure you have a good understanding of what the actual installation of a subwoofer under the stage would entail before proceeding in that direction.
 
Once you have a better idea of what you need or want the subwoofer to do and of any actual limitations on size, etc. then you will have a better basis for selecting specific products.  Otherwise regardless of the name on the box you could simply end up with yet another box that doesn't work for the application.
Such words of wisdom :)

Why is that soooo many people seem/want to forget the PRACTICAL side of what they are trying to do-and jump right into the "cool/fun" side?

It does not matter how good a particular product is-if it won't do the desired goal (FIRST- people have to set practical GOALS of performance/looks etc) then it is the WRONG tool.

As with any purchase-you should FIRST define what it is you want out of product-THEN go look for a product that meets YOUR needs-NOT something that meets another persons needs-that might be different than yours.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

duane massey

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2013, 09:34:32 pm »

Since your performance requirements/expectations are minimal, concentrate first on the practical. What is the actual dimension of the available space? What is your realistic budget? Where are you located? It might be feasible to have a box specifically designed for your available space with a decent 15" woofer, but if the space is just too small you may be completely wasting your $$.
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Duane Massey
Technician, musician, stubborn old guy
Houston, Texas

Steven Fondren

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2013, 12:03:57 am »

Dimensions:  Max vertical 18" Max horizontal 30" depth: unlimited.  Budget $500.
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duane massey

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2013, 02:31:34 am »

A custom-designed and built box should be feasible, given the issues you are working with. Won't be rider-friendly, but that doesn't seem to be an issue in your situation.
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Duane Massey
Technician, musician, stubborn old guy
Houston, Texas

Brian Jones

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2013, 04:47:37 am »

One option, since we're talking custom designs here, is building from tested designs.
There might be better out there, but for your use and budget, I think a Tuba 24 which can be built as a 16x24x24 cab and will work fine laying on its side, would be a good fit. Under 18" tall, and under 30" wide. Can be built for $150, but that's using the Eminence BP102 driver. The more recommended driver would cost more, but you would still be under $500. The rub is, you would need to find someone who can build it. Do you have someone like that?

You can determine if this will meet your needs by visiting Bill Fitzmaurice's forum and seeing what sort of output others are getting from that design. My guess is, you wouldn't be able to do much better on your budget given the space constraints. A lot would depend on the output rating of your amp though too. If it is a little on the underpowered side, a horn loaded cab like this would be perfect to boost the SPL.

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/T24.html
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David Allred

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2013, 01:09:46 pm »

What about placing a table, or other functional furniture in front of the stage with the sub concealed under it?  Flower stand, monitor platform, etc.

David
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Brad Weber

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2013, 05:33:42 pm »

The stage is in the rough in phase but well beyond the point of changing it's height.  I have discussed placement with the contractor so size and location should be good.
I would verify that nothing was miscommunicated or misunderstood.  I have been through too many experiences where what one party assumed will be 18" clear actually turns out to be 18" to the top of the deck, which once you subtract the finished floor, subfloor, framing, etc. may mean less than 9" clear.  And along similar lines, you might also want to make sure that creating a 30" wide, unlimited depth clear space is not going to potentially affect the stage framing and end up doing something like requiring 2x6 framing rather than 2x4 and thus reducing the clear height available.
 
Also consider that if you simply put a subwoofer under the stage then much of its energy is going to radiate under the stage, so you might want to construct some type of enclosure into the stage construction that would reduce the subwoofer energy radiated back into that big resonant cavity.
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ra byn taylor

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2013, 11:22:40 pm »

As for goals and expectations...this is a little country church with country people.  Not a lot of expectation to be quite honest.  We have decent system for our size church--2 JBL AC28/95's for mains and a Yamaha LS9 board.  The main amp is a Yamaha.  I put this in a few years back when our old board was stolen.  The auditorium is about 45x70.  The donated amp/crossover is a Crown xls2000. The person who actually "runs" the soundboard doesn't understand anything he is doing other than controlling the volume--and doesn't do that well.  So...again...the expectations are very little.  I would simply like to be able to get a fuller sound.  And had the equipment not been donated, It would likely have never come up.  Thanks

I do most of my sound reinforcement work alone so I travel as light as possible. For simple "fuller sound" type situations, I use (2) of these 10" bandpass subs.

http://www.tobyspeakers.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=29789

I've actually used them on a number of church installs where there wasn't a rock band to support. I order them with an Neutrik NL4 SpeakOn connector instead of the standard terminal cup.  Huge amount of low end for the cabinet size (L=24,W=13, H=11.75). Requires very little power due to it's efficiency (160 watts RMS). Since they come standard as bare MDF, they can be painted to match the carpet, wall, etc... if they don't ultimately work under the stage.

$520 for (2) of them plus shipping.

ra byn (robin)
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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2013, 11:22:40 pm »


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