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Author Topic: Good brands vs bad brands  (Read 9646 times)

Steven Fondren

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Good brands vs bad brands
« on: July 02, 2013, 08:28:05 pm »

Our church has had a crossover/amp donated for the specific purpose of installing a sub in our church.  The sub that was donated is too large (the cabinet) to fit in the only place we have available for one to go.  We hate to "waste" the crossover/amp, so we are considering purchasing a sub.  The cabinet cannot have a vertical height >18" which limits us to a 12" or possibly a 15" in a tight cabinet.  We are a small church with limited funds so unfortunately the $1k JBL is out of the question.  Aside from JBL's and Yamaha, I've not had much experience with speakers.  I realize that even good companies make low end products but I also know that there are some companies you just don't buy from.  Could anyone offer any suggestions as to "cheaper" brands that still make good products and any brands to steer clear of?
Thanks.

Steven
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Art Welter

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2013, 09:00:26 pm »

The cabinet cannot have a vertical height >18" which limits us to a 12" or possibly a 15" in a tight cabinet.  We are a small church with limited funds..
Steven,

Most 18" are less than 10" deep, placed "sideways" in a slot one can easily be fit in under 18" of vertical clearance.
If your existing box has a speaker, and is of decent quality, a rebuild could easily be done by any reasonably competent wood butcher.

If that is not possible, you need to define a budget and the maximum dimensions of the enclosure . $1000 is too much, what is the upper end?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 09:02:26 pm by Art Welter »
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Steven Fondren

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2013, 09:48:16 pm »

There is no existing cabinet.  The sub will be placed under the front edge of a stage with a grill opening of some kind.  The max vertical on the cabinet is 18" due to the stage height.  The width and depth could really be as big as needed.  Really wanting to go no more than 500 on the cost.
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David Morison

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2013, 07:57:46 am »

There is no existing cabinet.  The sub will be placed under the front edge of a stage with a grill opening of some kind.  The max vertical on the cabinet is 18" due to the stage height.  The width and depth could really be as big as needed.  Really wanting to go no more than 500 on the cost.

EV's QRx118s has an angled baffle to keep the width under that, you could simply lay them on their side to fit.
Not sure if they're common enough second hand to be down to your budget or not though.
HTH,
David.
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Scott Harris

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2013, 10:49:10 am »

Can you stretch the budget by saving up for a few more months and get a Danley TH-mini?
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Caleb Dueck

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Re: Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2013, 12:24:25 pm »

Can you stretch the budget by saving up for a few more months and get a Danley TH-mini?

Or TH-212 - better output and extension, still only 15" tall.
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Paul Dershem

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2013, 07:21:20 pm »

What's the rationale for placing the sub-woofer in that particular location?
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sam saponaro

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2013, 01:07:37 am »

USED, Old good stuff is allways better than New junk.
Other options are possiblie to purchase cabs and laod them with your own speakers.Could build a box if its for a non-transport deal you don't need handles and some of that type hardware,could be done fairly cheap.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 01:21:47 am by sam saponaro »
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Brad Weber

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2013, 09:15:33 am »

There is a lot to consider before worrying about the speaker brand.  It seems to make sense to first verify that what you can physically and/or financially manage will be able to support the goals involved, otherwise you seem to potentially be spending money that might be better invested elsewhere.

Perhaps the first thing to do in that process is to establish the goals and expectations.  What are your existing mains?  How do you use the system?  What improvements in performance or added capabilities are you expecting from adding a sub?  What does that relate in terms of the subwoofer performance required if driven by the currently undefined existing crossover and amplifier?
 
Have you looked under the stage to verify the construction and what space is actually possible?  Both the face framing and structural framing of the stage itself might make the actual usable space smaller than you think.  Having to create some type of sealed enclosure in which to install the subwoofer is often appropriate or even required for under stage applications, what might that do for the available dimensions and budget?   Then there is figuring out how to get the cabling to the subwoofer.  It might be prudent to make sure you have a good understanding of what the actual installation of a subwoofer under the stage would entail before proceeding in that direction.
 
Once you have a better idea of what you need or want the subwoofer to do and of any actual limitations on size, etc. then you will have a better basis for selecting specific products.  Otherwise regardless of the name on the box you could simply end up with yet another box that doesn't work for the application.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 09:21:12 am by Brad Weber »
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Rob Spence

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Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2013, 10:11:34 am »

What is the brand and model of the sub and crossover/amp donated?

Perhaps selling them could add to the budget for a sub that would fit?


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Steven Fondren

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2013, 10:54:38 am »

What's the rationale for placing the sub-woofer in that particular location?

It's the only non-visible location and the church folks don't want to see a big black box sitting out.
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Steven Fondren

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2013, 11:19:26 am »

There is a lot to consider before worrying about the speaker brand.  It seems to make sense to first verify that what you can physically and/or financially manage will be able to support the goals involved, otherwise you seem to potentially be spending money that might be better invested elsewhere.

Perhaps the first thing to do in that process is to establish the goals and expectations.  What are your existing mains?  How do you use the system?  What improvements in performance or added capabilities are you expecting from adding a sub?  What does that relate in terms of the subwoofer performance required if driven by the currently undefined existing crossover and amplifier?
 
Have you looked under the stage to verify the construction and what space is actually possible?  Both the face framing and structural framing of the stage itself might make the actual usable space smaller than you think.  Having to create some type of sealed enclosure in which to install the subwoofer is often appropriate or even required for under stage applications, what might that do for the available dimensions and budget?   Then there is figuring out how to get the cabling to the subwoofer.  It might be prudent to make sure you have a good understanding of what the actual installation of a subwoofer under the stage would entail before proceeding in that direction.
 
Once you have a better idea of what you need or want the subwoofer to do and of any actual limitations on size, etc. then you will have a better basis for selecting specific products.  Otherwise regardless of the name on the box you could simply end up with yet another box that doesn't work for the application.

The stage is in the rough in phase but well beyond the point of changing it's height.  I have discussed placement with the contractor so size and location should be good.  As for the cabling, I ran and connected a new snaked when the stage was much lower so getting the wiring down there shouldn't be too big of a problem--a litle time consuming and very hot (wires have to come through the attic space first) but doable.

As for goals and expectations...this is a little country church with country people.  Not a lot of expectation to be quite honest.  We have decent system for our size church--2 JBL AC28/95's for mains and a Yamaha LS9 board.  The main amp is a Yamaha.  I put this in a few years back when our old board was stolen.  The auditorium is about 45x70.  The donated amp/crossover is a Crown xls2000. The person who actually "runs" the soundboard doesn't understand anything he is doing other than controlling the volume--and doesn't do that well.  So...again...the expectations are very little.  I would simply like to be able to get a fuller sound.  And had the equipment not been donated, It would likely have never come up.  Thanks

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2013, 11:45:37 am »

There is a lot to consider before worrying about the speaker brand.  It seems to make sense to first verify that what you can physically and/or financially manage will be able to support the goals involved, otherwise you seem to potentially be spending money that might be better invested elsewhere.

Perhaps the first thing to do in that process is to establish the goals and expectations.  What are your existing mains?  How do you use the system?  What improvements in performance or added capabilities are you expecting from adding a sub?  What does that relate in terms of the subwoofer performance required if driven by the currently undefined existing crossover and amplifier?
 
Have you looked under the stage to verify the construction and what space is actually possible?  Both the face framing and structural framing of the stage itself might make the actual usable space smaller than you think.  Having to create some type of sealed enclosure in which to install the subwoofer is often appropriate or even required for under stage applications, what might that do for the available dimensions and budget?   Then there is figuring out how to get the cabling to the subwoofer.  It might be prudent to make sure you have a good understanding of what the actual installation of a subwoofer under the stage would entail before proceeding in that direction.
 
Once you have a better idea of what you need or want the subwoofer to do and of any actual limitations on size, etc. then you will have a better basis for selecting specific products.  Otherwise regardless of the name on the box you could simply end up with yet another box that doesn't work for the application.
Such words of wisdom :)

Why is that soooo many people seem/want to forget the PRACTICAL side of what they are trying to do-and jump right into the "cool/fun" side?

It does not matter how good a particular product is-if it won't do the desired goal (FIRST- people have to set practical GOALS of performance/looks etc) then it is the WRONG tool.

As with any purchase-you should FIRST define what it is you want out of product-THEN go look for a product that meets YOUR needs-NOT something that meets another persons needs-that might be different than yours.
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duane massey

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2013, 09:34:32 pm »

Since your performance requirements/expectations are minimal, concentrate first on the practical. What is the actual dimension of the available space? What is your realistic budget? Where are you located? It might be feasible to have a box specifically designed for your available space with a decent 15" woofer, but if the space is just too small you may be completely wasting your $$.
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Duane Massey
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Steven Fondren

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2013, 12:03:57 am »

Dimensions:  Max vertical 18" Max horizontal 30" depth: unlimited.  Budget $500.
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duane massey

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2013, 02:31:34 am »

A custom-designed and built box should be feasible, given the issues you are working with. Won't be rider-friendly, but that doesn't seem to be an issue in your situation.
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Duane Massey
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Brian Jones

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2013, 04:47:37 am »

One option, since we're talking custom designs here, is building from tested designs.
There might be better out there, but for your use and budget, I think a Tuba 24 which can be built as a 16x24x24 cab and will work fine laying on its side, would be a good fit. Under 18" tall, and under 30" wide. Can be built for $150, but that's using the Eminence BP102 driver. The more recommended driver would cost more, but you would still be under $500. The rub is, you would need to find someone who can build it. Do you have someone like that?

You can determine if this will meet your needs by visiting Bill Fitzmaurice's forum and seeing what sort of output others are getting from that design. My guess is, you wouldn't be able to do much better on your budget given the space constraints. A lot would depend on the output rating of your amp though too. If it is a little on the underpowered side, a horn loaded cab like this would be perfect to boost the SPL.

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/T24.html
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David Allred

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2013, 01:09:46 pm »

What about placing a table, or other functional furniture in front of the stage with the sub concealed under it?  Flower stand, monitor platform, etc.

David
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Brad Weber

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2013, 05:33:42 pm »

The stage is in the rough in phase but well beyond the point of changing it's height.  I have discussed placement with the contractor so size and location should be good.
I would verify that nothing was miscommunicated or misunderstood.  I have been through too many experiences where what one party assumed will be 18" clear actually turns out to be 18" to the top of the deck, which once you subtract the finished floor, subfloor, framing, etc. may mean less than 9" clear.  And along similar lines, you might also want to make sure that creating a 30" wide, unlimited depth clear space is not going to potentially affect the stage framing and end up doing something like requiring 2x6 framing rather than 2x4 and thus reducing the clear height available.
 
Also consider that if you simply put a subwoofer under the stage then much of its energy is going to radiate under the stage, so you might want to construct some type of enclosure into the stage construction that would reduce the subwoofer energy radiated back into that big resonant cavity.
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ra byn taylor

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2013, 11:22:40 pm »

As for goals and expectations...this is a little country church with country people.  Not a lot of expectation to be quite honest.  We have decent system for our size church--2 JBL AC28/95's for mains and a Yamaha LS9 board.  The main amp is a Yamaha.  I put this in a few years back when our old board was stolen.  The auditorium is about 45x70.  The donated amp/crossover is a Crown xls2000. The person who actually "runs" the soundboard doesn't understand anything he is doing other than controlling the volume--and doesn't do that well.  So...again...the expectations are very little.  I would simply like to be able to get a fuller sound.  And had the equipment not been donated, It would likely have never come up.  Thanks

I do most of my sound reinforcement work alone so I travel as light as possible. For simple "fuller sound" type situations, I use (2) of these 10" bandpass subs.

http://www.tobyspeakers.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=29789

I've actually used them on a number of church installs where there wasn't a rock band to support. I order them with an Neutrik NL4 SpeakOn connector instead of the standard terminal cup.  Huge amount of low end for the cabinet size (L=24,W=13, H=11.75). Requires very little power due to it's efficiency (160 watts RMS). Since they come standard as bare MDF, they can be painted to match the carpet, wall, etc... if they don't ultimately work under the stage.

$520 for (2) of them plus shipping.

ra byn (robin)
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Paul Dershem

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2013, 12:12:47 am »

I do most of my sound reinforcement work alone so I travel as light as possible. For simple "fuller sound" type situations, I use (2) of these 10" bandpass subs.

http://www.tobyspeakers.com/index.php?dispatch=products.view&product_id=29789

I've actually used them on a number of church installs where there wasn't a rock band to support. I order them with an Neutrik NL4 SpeakOn connector instead of the standard terminal cup.  Huge amount of low end for the cabinet size (L=24,W=13, H=11.75). Requires very little power due to it's efficiency (160 watts RMS). Since they come standard as bare MDF, they can be painted to match the carpet, wall, etc... if they don't ultimately work under the stage.

$520 for (2) of them plus shipping.

ra byn (robin)


That looks like something that could work well to fill out the bottom on "acoustic" gigs, folk, bluegrass, jazz trios and big bands etc.

Please tell me more about your experience with them. :)
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ra byn taylor

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2013, 07:40:40 pm »


That looks like something that could work well to fill out the bottom on "acoustic" gigs, folk, bluegrass, jazz trios and big bands etc.

Please tell me more about your experience with them. :)

Literally all the types of gigs you mentioned above I've covered with (2) TOBY Sheriff subs covering LF.

I've used them outdoors for medium SPL gigs like dance concerts & such. Whether they're able to get loud enough for X gig depends on what you're trying to do of course. Past a certain SPL point, I bring my 18" sub cabinets but for just adding some low end to an small outdoor PA, the Sheriff's work fine. I don't always have the space to take my larger subs & most of the time, large subs are overkill for the type of gigs I do.

I've used a sheriff for adding some thump to a drum wedge. I've run them without any LP/HP filters when I didn't have a DSP device with me. The box rolls off mechanically pretty fast after about 100hz. They do sound better processed though.

For it's size & weight, I haven't come across anything that has the same output for the wattage in or the cost. I can physically carry (2) at a time without much effort via their ports. (2) will easily fill in my front seat, back seat, trunk, etc...

I have a pair of the carpet covered version & a pair of the black painted version. The carpeted version holds up best to wear & tear but outdoors the carpet gets grass stuck in it so I put a mat down.

There is a frequency response chart on the website if you're the type that likes that sort of data. It's under vehicle subwoofers / bandpass enclosures / sheriff single 10"/ images / view larger image.

I'm probably the only person using them for pro audio but for all the installs they are on : (2) small churches, (1) small live theater, (1) arts center, they just work & I've never had a failure or issue. If you decide to get some, just make sure you ask for them to put an NL4 Speakon connector on them instead of the stock cup unless you prefer banana plug type connections. Maybe even (2) if you plan on running them off one amp channel. I have the dual voice coil versions which will allow for combining them in different ways although I always just run one per amp channel. With (2) 4 ohm voice coils, you can wire the voice coils inside the cabinet for 8 ohms (what I do) or run them @ 2 ohms. The single voice coil version is 4 ohms & I liked the idea of having some options so I went with the DVC version at the time. Not sure if that was the best decision or not but I have plenty of power amps & figured 8 ohm loads would be cleaner. If you're not a tinkerer, a single 4 ohm load might be the ticket. The added bonus to the Sheriff is that it's small enough to be used in places where a larger sub might not be. Like a living room:)  One of the churches that has them just sticks them behind a large plant. 

If you have specific questions I haven't covered, write back.   

Best regards,

ra byn (robin)
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Paul Dershem

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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2013, 09:11:58 pm »

Thanks! Very helpful. :)
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Re: Good brands vs bad brands
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2013, 09:11:58 pm »


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