ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 11   Go Down

Author Topic: Loud guitar cabs in small venue equals bad mix!  (Read 28683 times)

Marc Platt

  • Classic LAB
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 215
Loud guitar cabs in small venue equals bad mix!
« on: June 27, 2013, 09:05:41 am »

   Has anybody ever put a heavy moving blanket over a guitar cab (mic'd) and fed to players monitor mix so they can hear themselves and each other?
  I was thinking of trying this with the guys who say their tone and sound they want requires a certain volume minimum and they can not turn down beyond that minimum without loosing their "tone".
  In situations where the venue is small a super loud guitar amp can destroy a mix and sometimes for some reason or another the player wont turn it down to a level that is not destructive to the audience at certain locations, usually the path of the cab. I usually try to have them angle amps up towards them self or raise it up on a case or similar even facing sideways can help but sometimes I would like to cover the cab with a heavy blanket and feed through monitors.
  Would it effect the sound picked up by the guitar cabinet microphone (sm57 or e609) if I cover the cab with a heavy moving blankey?
Logged
As a child I had dreamed of becoming an engineer. Now all I want to know is, when do I get to drive the train?

David Simpson

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 125
Re: Loud guitar cabs in small venue equals bad mix!
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2013, 09:12:45 am »

This is a classic problem. Unfortunately, putting a blanket would indeed effect the tone, probably significantly. It would tend to alter the higher frequencies especially.

If you have a heavy curtain or some absorptive material upstage, you might try facing the cabinets upstage instead. I do a lot of work in theatres, and that words decently, as the curtains helps absorb some of that sound and puts the amp out of the direct line of fire to the audience.

In the end, it is more about people skills than anything. The only thing that will really help us in these situations is to do all we can to get them to turn the amps down.

~Dave
Logged

Marc Platt

  • Classic LAB
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 215
Re: Loud guitar cabs in small venue equals bad mix!
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2013, 09:23:20 am »

This is a classic problem. Unfortunately, putting a blanket would indeed effect the tone, probably significantly. It would tend to alter the higher frequencies especially.

If you have a heavy curtain or some absorptive material upstage, you might try facing the cabinets upstage instead. I do a lot of work in theatres, and that words decently, as the curtains helps absorb some of that sound and puts the amp out of the direct line of fire to the audience.

In the end, it is more about people skills than anything. The only thing that will really help us in these situations is to do all we can to get them to turn the amps down.

~Dave
do you think the tone will be damaged even picked up through the mic? wont the mic pickup the sound before the blanket filters anything if its close mic'd on the inside of the cover?
 
Logged
As a child I had dreamed of becoming an engineer. Now all I want to know is, when do I get to drive the train?

Robert Weston

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 562
  • Power is cheap, reputation is not.
Re: Loud guitar cabs in small venue equals bad mix!
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2013, 09:57:08 am »

Typical for guitarists for most shows for most everyone on this board.

Never tried a blanket; we have the over-zealous guitarist point their cabinets to either stage left or right if they want to turn them up.  We still mic them.
Logged

Othmane Alaoui

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 152
    • Produkson - Sound & Lights
Re: Loud guitar cabs in small venue equals bad mix!
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2013, 10:01:33 am »

do you think the tone will be damaged even picked up through the mic? wont the mic pickup the sound before the blanket filters anything if its close mic'd on the inside of the cover?
 
It is indeed sad but there isn't tons of solutions. I usually ask upfront to lower the cab level, if not, the global mix will suffer and who cares about the tone at this point ... The other way around in small clubs is IMO to remove the guit from the mix and try to compensate and ultimately if the band is playing often in such small environment, try to convince him to get a small amp with the proper sound, it will help them not screw up their mix.
Logged

EvanKirkendall

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 86
  • Personal Text?
    • Evan Kirkendall
Re: Loud guitar cabs in small venue equals bad mix!
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2013, 10:03:40 am »

   Has anybody ever put a heavy moving blanket over a guitar cab (mic'd) and fed to players monitor mix so they can hear themselves and each other?
  I was thinking of trying this with the guys who say their tone and sound they want requires a certain volume minimum and they can not turn down beyond that minimum without loosing their "tone".
  In situations where the venue is small a super loud guitar amp can destroy a mix and sometimes for some reason or another the player wont turn it down to a level that is not destructive to the audience at certain locations, usually the path of the cab. I usually try to have them angle amps up towards them self or raise it up on a case or similar even facing sideways can help but sometimes I would like to cover the cab with a heavy blanket and feed through monitors.
  Would it effect the sound picked up by the guitar cabinet microphone (sm57 or e609) if I cover the cab with a heavy moving blankey?


The low budget, easy fix is to have them angle the guitar cab up at their head, and shoot it across the stage. IE- straight in to their right ear. Option 2 is an iso cab- or an iso room! Get some long speaker cables and put the amp somewhere else!




Evan
Logged
HarfordSound LLC
HarfordSound Facebook

-Your friendly neighborhood dealer for everything!-

*Voted most destructive on mids, 2006*
*Most low end at a rock show, 5 years running*

Marc Platt

  • Classic LAB
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 215
Re: Loud guitar cabs in small venue equals bad mix!
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2013, 10:10:03 am »

The other way around in small clubs is IMO to remove the guit from the mix and try to compensate
That is what ends up happening, and the rest of the mix has to start from there but that is what id like to avoid. If its not in the mix it is out of my control also tends to be inconsistent because of the directionality characteristics of guitar cabs.   
Logged
As a child I had dreamed of becoming an engineer. Now all I want to know is, when do I get to drive the train?

Marc Platt

  • Classic LAB
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 215
Re: Loud guitar cabs in small venue equals bad mix!
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2013, 10:12:56 am »


The low budget, easy fix is to have them angle the guitar cab up at their head, and shoot it across the stage. IE- straight in to their right ear. Option 2 is an iso cab- or an iso room! Get some long speaker cables and put the amp somewhere else!




Evan
That is what I try to do when possible but sometimes for whatever reason those solutions either are not possible or still hit the audience too much. The logistics don't always pan out.
Logged
As a child I had dreamed of becoming an engineer. Now all I want to know is, when do I get to drive the train?

Mark McFarlane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1865
  • Middle East
    • Arkose Records
Re: Loud guitar cabs in small venue equals bad mix!
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2013, 10:27:36 am »


The low budget, easy fix is to have them angle the guitar cab up at their head, and shoot it across the stage. IE- straight in to their right ear. Option 2 is an iso cab- or an iso room! Get some long speaker cables and put the amp somewhere else!


+1, FWIW, this is how I always set up a shared backline at festivals.  A couple of wood blocks in your kit will help with tilt.

Regarding the blanket, there will be some reflection off the blanket which will have some impact on the sound, but go ahead and give it a try and report back.  Experimentation is a good thing. 

Studios use a similar technique all the time (look up gobos).  I use gobos mostly to isolate acoustic instruments from each other, but the idea is the same, to attenuate in a particular direction.

If you go for Evan's suggestion of an iso room (i.e. put the amp offstage in a back room), look into the Radial SGI. Works like a charm for this application.  Provides variable impedance to the guitar and a balanced line to run to the amp.   I've never used mine live, but use it all the time in the studio and just put the guitar amps in a different room.  If I owned a cub I'd consider adding an amp room.. but then you give up the space of a table....  The real downside to this approach is there is no easy way to change amp settings between songs. Not a problem in the studio.

An isocab woud be nice, but they have drawbacks. Another option is a power soak between the amp and speaker.  Lets you drive the tubes hard but lowers the volume.  If the guitarists 'sound' is the speaker breakup, a power soak wont make them happy.

The best way to deal with the problem is often to have a frank discussion with the guitarist and the rest of the band about the 'good of the band' and the 'audience experience'.    If you work with the band regularly, have the discussion in advance with each band member individually so you can all talk to the guitarist. 

I did a successful heavy metal show a few month ago, where the guitarist was notoriously loud, by having multiple conversations with the other band members the week before the show, encouraging them to talk to the guitarist before the show,... I think it helped that everyone in the band was saying the same thing as I was during sound check.

The goal is to get the guitarist to understand that the audience experience and the experience of the other band members is more important than the guitarists 'tone'.  Good luck with that.
Logged
Mark McFarlane
ARKOSERECORDS
Turn down what's too loud.

Jay Barracato

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2025
  • Solomons, MD
Re: Loud guitar cabs in small venue equals bad mix!
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2013, 10:36:30 am »

Nothing gets the point across quite like having the entire band on in ears and complaining about the level of the guitar in their mixes when the guitar channel isn't in any of the mixes and all they hear is bleed from the vocal mics.
Logged
Jay Barracato

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Loud guitar cabs in small venue equals bad mix!
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2013, 10:36:30 am »


Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 11   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.105 seconds with 22 queries.