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Author Topic: 2 horns is this possible?  (Read 8816 times)

Spenser Hamilton

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2 horns is this possible?
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2013, 02:25:11 pm »

Isn't there a long standing joke about what the CS and RS name scheme used by Community really mean...
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Bob Leonard

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Re: 2 horns is this possible?
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2013, 05:02:14 pm »

Beg all you want, the laws of physics haven't changed for a long time. I didn't discover this stuff yesterday. piezos have less mass and better transient response and better high frequency response going out to 30 & 40 KHz. Compression drivers start rolling off around 3.5 KHz. Compression drivers simply go much louder, have higher power handling and greater voice coil excursion and thus can be crossed over much lower. If that equals "better" for you, Ok, but everything I have said is based in physics and facts-not opinions.
If you don't want to believe me, Ck out the mini-piezo line array in the old Community CSX-70 S2. A box  I once successfully did a hip hop show for 2000 people with. (On top of a dozen 18" subs crossed at about 100hz) Not quite as loud as I wanted but "Got R Done".  These facts were established about 20 yrs ago. You might call Bruce Howse over at Community and explain to him how ignorant he is about acoustic coupling.
Good Luck w/ That.

Chuck,
I respect your opinions but quoting the laws of physics works in both directions. 30-40khz might well be the ticket for a gig in a dog pound, or for use as a super tweeter in a home system, but our world is built around quality compression drivers capable of performing forever under duress in the world of sound reinforcement.
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BOSTON STRONG........
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I did a gig for Otis Elevator once. Like every job, it had it's ups and downs.

Art Welter

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Re: 2 horns is this possible?
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2013, 06:31:48 pm »

Beg all you want, the laws of physics haven't changed for a long time. I didn't discover this stuff yesterday. piezos have less mass and better transient response and better high frequency response going out to 30 & 40 KHz. Compression drivers start rolling off around 3.5 KHz.
If you don't want to believe me, Ck out the mini-piezo line array in the old Community CSX-70 S2.
Chuck,

Always interesting to check out what things looked like in the "bad old days".
The CSX70-S2 high frequency response drops from around 109 dB at 4000 Hz (where the spec sheet says it is crossed at) to 85 dB at 16,000 Hz.
That is one of the worst looking published response charts I have ever seen.  +10 dB at 4K, ouch.

There are many reasons Meyers and Showco (now owned by Clair Brothers) have not used piezo driver arrays since the late 1970s, and cost is not one of them.

Art
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: 2 horns is this possible?
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2013, 07:05:43 pm »

.
If you don't want to believe me, Ck out the mini-piezo line array in the old Community CSX-70 S2. A box  I once successfully did a hip hop show for 2000 people with. (On top of a dozen 18" subs crossed at about 100hz) Not quite as loud as I wanted but "Got R Done".  These facts were established about 20 yrs ago. You might call Bruce Howse over at Community and explain to him how ignorant he is about acoustic coupling.
Good Luck w/ That.
Just because you think you did a "successful" show does mean that it was good.  With hip hop as long as you have plenty of subs-they are happy.

"Got-r-done" just means you got paid.

Many (if not most) loudspeakers are built for a price point to be competitive.  Very often piezos are used to "increase driver count", which does nothing for sound quality.  The fewer drivers the better.

If you actually talked to Bruce, you would realize that at the time of that cabinet-those were pretty much a "bottom of the line" product for Community.

Just because they were used does not mean they were great.  Many times it is just a matter of getting more HF cheaply-not better HF.

The only cabinet I am familiar with in which a piezo was used successfully was the Dalquist DQ10.  The piezo (standard round variety) was high passed around 17Khz (give or take).

It worked-for those that could hear that high.

The only "high quality" cabinet (that I am aware of) that used piezos was the early Meyer MSL3.  But later cabinets did not use them.

Most serious uses of the Northwest sound dual 15" 2" 6 (or so) piezos would take the piezos out of service because they did more damage to the sound than what they added.

Maybe there are some good quality products that used them-but I am drawing a blank on that right now.
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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

chuck clark

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Re: 2 horns is this possible?
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2013, 02:40:48 pm »

Ha! The "bad old days weren't that bad Art. Please re-read my original post. I said they don't go loud and have serious power and frequency limitations. Somebody said they sounded bad because they were piezos and my whole reason for posting is that's just wrong. There's no question their output limitations aren't suitable for modern concert systems.
I bought those 'ol CSX 70s brand new for just over $900 a piece and yeah, you had to eq down that surprising M-200 mid horn but I was very happy to discover I could run them in excess of 130 db and they sounded really good!  I owned them for seven years and they paid for themselves several times over and I only had to re-driver the piezo array once (after that hip hop gig-I believe it was "Dem Franchise Boys")  Man they were hittin!
It was only later when I was studying line arrays that I realized that piezo array was my first line array! Lol
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: 2 horns is this possible?
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2013, 02:40:48 pm »


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