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Author Topic: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?  (Read 10487 times)

Alan Star

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Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« on: June 05, 2013, 03:48:18 am »

I've been running lab subs for a while and have 8 in total. I usually run somewhere between 4 and 8 in a mono block stack for EDM. I currently have 4 res 2 funktion one boxes (2 per side) but find they are a bit weak in the low mid bass, up top they sound great but still not enough to keep up with 8 labs. I have the opportunity to buy 8 flashlight TFS-780H MID-HIGH boxes that are in good condition and wondering how they might go, 4 per side with the 8 labs. They only go as low as 150hz tho so not sure if the lab is useable up to that freq ? I find i have to drop quite a lot out of the labs at around 80 to 100 hz ... wondering if I can eq to use the freq above 100 hz ? Any feedback welcome, I guess I would always be better off having dedicated low mid bass horns, just means a lot of extra boxes and amplification. The TS boxes are also close to 90kg each ...
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John Halliburton

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2013, 08:25:16 am »

I currently have 4 res 2 funktion one boxes (2 per side) but find they are a bit weak in the low mid bass, up top they sound great but still not enough to keep up with 8 labs. I have the opportunity to buy 8 flashlight TFS-780H MID-HIGH boxes that are in good condition and wondering how they might go, 4 per side with the 8 labs. They only go as low as 150hz tho so not sure if the lab is useable up to that freq ? ..

No, what you need is another pair of the Funktion One Res 2 cabinets.  Four of any cabinet that only goes down to 130-150hz(150hz is the "-4db" point) is not going to do the job of mating up to the LAB Subs.

The Funktion One loudspeaker has a -3db point of 50hz, giving you plenty of overlap to play with in the processor/electronic crossover settings, which is a much much better situation to have, especially with EDM music as a source.

Thinking of equalizers as a device to put something where there is nothing is not the right thought process.

Best regards,

John
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Alan Star

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2013, 08:38:35 am »

Ok, thanks John. If I could afford a couple more res 2, maybe that would do the trick altho as I say I do feel they are a bit weak in the really low midbass, especially perhaps for edm. Up top they sound fantastic. I was just looking at this graph for a cluster of four labs, I can see why I have to pull 60 to 90hz down, but it seems there is still some usable freq up to around 150hz, would it not sound ok or would it really make a big difference to have separate dedicated lo mid bass ?

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John Halliburton

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2013, 09:00:53 am »

Ok, thanks John. If I could afford a couple more res 2, maybe that would do the trick altho as I say I do feel they are a bit weak in the really low midbass, especially perhaps for edm. Up top they sound fantastic. I was just looking at this graph for a cluster of four labs, I can see why I have to pull 60 to 90hz down, but it seems there is still some usable freq up to around 150hz, would it not sound ok or would it really make a big difference to have separate dedicated lo mid bass ?



Try something first-flip the polarity on the speaker lines feeding either the tops or the subs, and see what happens to your midbass.  My first thought is that you have tops out of polarity with the subs.

Also, what are you using for a processor/electronic crossover between tops and subs?  You typically need a processor instead of a basic electronic crossover(although it will work), as there is a substantial delay in the Lab Sub, as the real source is 10-11' further away deep in the beginning of the horn path, and time aligning the subs and tops properly will help the overall performance of the system.

Best regards,

John
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Alan Star

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2013, 09:07:20 am »

Thanks John, I do check for phase coherance between the subs and the low mids, I flip it using test tones to see for volume increase or decrease at the xover point. I also use a spectrum analyser sometimes. I'm crossing them at 80 hz altho I find I get much better results by dropping the labs crossover point to around 60 hz and leave the lo mids at 80. both on a LR24 slope. Am using an XTA DP226 processor with audiocore on my laptop. I'm doing guesswork with delay timing between them but I do check they are in phase with each other.
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Alan Star

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2013, 09:09:55 am »

Running the f1s by themselves even, standalone, you notice they are just not super strong in the really lo mid bass. They are on quite a short horn after all.
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Alan Star

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2013, 09:53:14 am »

I could perhaps be using a bigger amp on the 15"s tho. I'm using 2x MC2 E25 to bi amp the f1's.
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John Halliburton

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2013, 11:07:25 pm »

I could perhaps be using a bigger amp on the 15"s tho. I'm using 2x MC2 E25 to bi amp the f1's.

You're crossing the Funktion's out at 80hz, and the Lab Subs at 60hz, and you're wondering why there's a weak midbass?

And at this point, you're checking polarity between tops and bottoms, not phase.

Cross them both at 80hz or so, and use parametrics to flatten out the hump in the Lab Sub's upper response, and I assume you're delaying the tops about 8-9ms, give or take.

Best regards,

John

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Alan Star

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2013, 01:49:06 am »

You're crossing the Funktion's out at 80hz, and the Lab Subs at 60hz, and you're wondering why there's a weak midbass?

Hi John, in my experience this does not cause weak midbass, which was already a problem, this is to do with upper sub bass which there was way too much of, sounds a lot cleaner like this. I have used full length midbass horns 4x 12" which gave way more punch than the 4x 15" in the res 2, using the same xover settings. So it's not a case of me wondering why there is weak lo midbass because I've heard the difference. My question is whether the lab sub is usable for lo mid bass up to 150hz or whether it would really be much better to have a separate horn for this ? I guess really the only way I'm going to know is to experiment with it myself. Just wondering if other people using lab subs for edm had explored with crossing them over higher and if anyone had achieved good results with this ?

And at this point, you're checking polarity between tops and bottoms, not phase.

I thought that by changing the polarity of one or the other would bring them either in or out of phase with each other ?

Cross them both at 80hz or so, and use parametrics to flatten out the hump in the Lab Sub's upper response, and I assume you're delaying the tops about 8-9ms, give or take.

Best regards,

John

I will experiment with using eq instead, and cross them both at 80hz, or I'm thinking I might try a higher xover point, perhaps 120 or 150hz and see how it sounds, thanks !
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2013, 06:07:39 am »



I thought that by changing the polarity of one or the other would bring them either in or out of phase with each other ?


Phase and polarity are very different events.  Phase is time related.

Yes you can flip the polarity (you only have one of 2 choices-in or out) and the phase will change.

But changing the phase has nothing to do with polarity (you have millions of choices when you change the phase)

It is a VERY important difference.

The only way to adjust relative phase is with time.  Polarity has nothing to do with time.
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Merlijn van Veen

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Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2013, 06:51:52 am »

Don't guess, measure or make at least an educated guess. When using a sinus signal for x-over alignment, judging by the increase in volume, you might end up in phase for that specific frequency. However, you very well may be anything from half a cycle up to a couple of complete cycles apart. Resulting in different phase slopes. True, you'll have summation at XO but, to left and right of XO you'll have ripple throughout the XO region. In case of 24 dB/oct. slopes you'll have a crossover region of about 1 octave wide (where the individual bands differ less than 10 dB), assuming that levels and corner frequencies are identical, which leaves considerable room for error. Using filters at different corner frequencies, unless intentionally, is another cause for asymmetry in phase slopes.

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2013, 07:20:33 am »

Don't guess, measure or make at least an educated guess. When using a sinus signal for x-over alignment, judging by the increase in volume, you might end up in phase for that specific frequency. However, you very well may be anything from half a cycle up to a couple of complete cycles apart. Resulting in different phase slopes. True, you'll have summation at XO but, to left and right of XO you'll have ripple throughout the XO region. In case of 24 dB/oct. slopes you'll have a crossover region of about 1 octave wide (where the individual bands differ less than 10 dB), assuming that levels and corner frequencies are identical, which leaves considerable room for error. Using filters at different corner frequencies, unless intentionally, is another cause for asymmetry in phase slopes.
And remember that you HAVE to look at more than just the crossover freq.  The old way of "adjust the time till you get maximum addition at crossover freq can lead to cancellations above or below crossover.

Yes the delay was right to get that ONE freq (the problem with using a sine wave as the source), but not across the range where the 2 pass bands interact with each other.

Most people are interested in more than just one freq.

But if you only look at ONE thing (and choose ti ignore everything else)-then life becomes much more simple.
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Alan Star

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2013, 07:27:32 am »

I kind of reached the conclusion that considering the tops are never stacked directly on top of the subs, as I run a central mono block of subs, that really the phase coherence will never be perfect because it will change depending on where you are on the dance floor in relationship to the two points A) the top boxes slightly off to the side and B) the subs in the center. So there is no point trying to get it perfect because in relation to what ? Can only get it close to where the majority of people will be most of the time, and yes I do make an educated guess of the time delay, and then check freq resp to polarity inversion, measured front and centre, once again where most the people will be.
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John Halliburton

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2013, 09:34:29 am »

It is a VERY important difference.

The only way to adjust relative phase is with time.  Polarity has nothing to do with time.

"Time is an illusion.  Lunchtime doubly so."  Douglas Adams

I would add:  "Closing time is crucial"

Sort of puts loudspeaker time issues in perspective. ;>)
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Merlijn van Veen

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2013, 09:43:43 am »

I kind of reached the conclusion that considering the tops are never stacked directly on top of the subs, as I run a central mono block of subs, that really the phase coherence will never be perfect because it will change depending on where you are on the dance floor in relationship to the two points A) the top boxes slightly off to the side and B) the subs in the center. So there is no point trying to get it perfect because in relation to what ? Can only get it close to where the majority of people will be most of the time, and yes I do make an educated guess of the time delay, and then check freq resp to polarity inversion, measured front and centre, once again where most the people will be.

Aligning to where the majority of people are might seem like a democratic and sensible approach but physics won’t always agree. As displacement between subwoofers and mains increases, the area where you can maintain minimum variation in phase slopes throughout the crossover region decreases. From a physics POV, meaning predominantly level and time, it makes most sense to align in the back of the venue. Here the variation in level and delta path, assuming you’ve your subs stacked on the ground and your mains flown/hung somewhere above, over area is minimal. Meaning the marriage between subs and mains will last the longest over area. You might end up however with an unhappy BE. As a result, most of the time alignment is done at or near FOH. In case of EDM, if everybody is crowding in front of the DJ booth, supposingly the front of the venue. It might be tempting to align there. This is however the most volatile area in terms of level and delta path, to the point where time becomes irrelevant because the subwoofers drown the mains by more than 10 dB. Basically reducing the system to two unrelated channels. Also, excuse me for splitting hairs, the term “phase coherence” is confusing to me. I’d like to think that I understand, what it’s that you’re trying to say. Though related, AFAIK they’re two different aspects of audio measurement. Phase is time over frequency and coherence is a ratio between signal and noise. I don’t doubt that you make educated guesses. You clearly demonstrated your understanding that, as soon as you work with more than one speaker, it’s all about compromise. There are however some tried and proven methods to address these issues. I strongly recommend that you read a book like “Sound systems: design and optimization” if you haven’t done so already. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to be condescending. Personally, subwoofer alignment is one of the things that took me the longest to get a fix grasp on. Sometimes it helps to make a reference measurement up close, relatively free from reflections, in order to see what you have to look for at a greater distance.

Alan Star

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2013, 10:31:34 am »

Hey guys thanks all for your responses but I wasn't really questioning all this so much as if the lab subs upper freq is usable, 100 to 150 hz ? I don't really have any problem with where the labs meet the lo mids, as I've mentioned, I've run it with dedicated lo mid horns before and was more than happy with the sound. I was wanting to know if anyone had any experience crossing them over higher around 150hz with edm ?
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Art Welter

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2013, 12:49:11 pm »

Hey guys thanks all for your responses but I wasn't really questioning all this so much as if the lab subs upper freq is usable, 100 to 150 hz ? I don't really have any problem with where the labs meet the lo mids, as I've mentioned, I've run it with dedicated lo mid horns before and was more than happy with the sound. I was wanting to know if anyone had any experience crossing them over higher around 150hz with edm ?
The sound quality of the LabSub at 150 won't be as much an issue as how much it will change when people are in front of the cabinets.
If you are elevating the subs above head height, the "mud factor" in the 100-150 range when blocked by bodies is not a big issue, otherwise it will be.

That said, phase  alignment gets more critical the higher you cross over, at 100 Hz the wavelength is 11.3 feet, reversing polarity may put the output within 1/4 wavelength at the crossover point, but lagging by one cycle.
At 150 Hz, the crossover won't be right unless time aligned to within 1.9 feet.
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Merlijn van Veen

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Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2013, 06:36:12 pm »

Regarding muddiness, harmonic distortion from the subwoofers came into mind? Especially because the OP mentioned that the LPF @ 60 Hz, effectively creating a gap or underlap, sounded "cleaner". EDM is notorious for its LF content. Maybe at demanding levels, this distortion, if any, may become noticeable.

Alan Star

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2013, 02:59:21 pm »

The sound quality of the LabSub at 150 won't be as much an issue as how much it will change when people are in front of the cabinets.
If you are elevating the subs above head height, the "mud factor" in the 100-150 range when blocked by bodies is not a big issue, otherwise it will be.

That said, phase  alignment gets more critical the higher you cross over, at 100 Hz the wavelength is 11.3 feet, reversing polarity may put the output within 1/4 wavelength at the crossover point, but lagging by one cycle.
At 150 Hz, the crossover won't be right unless time aligned to within 1.9 feet.

Thanks Art, that's a good point about phase alignment being more critical in the higher freq, I think the lower it's possible to cross them over the better in all respects. Also, considering the weight of these boxes, and even though they are going fairly cheaply and I'm sure still sound good, I think I'm better off to look for another solution that goes lower. Thanks everyone.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 03:02:46 pm by Alan Star »
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