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Author Topic: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?  (Read 10489 times)

Alan Star

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Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« on: June 05, 2013, 03:48:18 am »

I've been running lab subs for a while and have 8 in total. I usually run somewhere between 4 and 8 in a mono block stack for EDM. I currently have 4 res 2 funktion one boxes (2 per side) but find they are a bit weak in the low mid bass, up top they sound great but still not enough to keep up with 8 labs. I have the opportunity to buy 8 flashlight TFS-780H MID-HIGH boxes that are in good condition and wondering how they might go, 4 per side with the 8 labs. They only go as low as 150hz tho so not sure if the lab is useable up to that freq ? I find i have to drop quite a lot out of the labs at around 80 to 100 hz ... wondering if I can eq to use the freq above 100 hz ? Any feedback welcome, I guess I would always be better off having dedicated low mid bass horns, just means a lot of extra boxes and amplification. The TS boxes are also close to 90kg each ...
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John Halliburton

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2013, 08:25:16 am »

I currently have 4 res 2 funktion one boxes (2 per side) but find they are a bit weak in the low mid bass, up top they sound great but still not enough to keep up with 8 labs. I have the opportunity to buy 8 flashlight TFS-780H MID-HIGH boxes that are in good condition and wondering how they might go, 4 per side with the 8 labs. They only go as low as 150hz tho so not sure if the lab is useable up to that freq ? ..

No, what you need is another pair of the Funktion One Res 2 cabinets.  Four of any cabinet that only goes down to 130-150hz(150hz is the "-4db" point) is not going to do the job of mating up to the LAB Subs.

The Funktion One loudspeaker has a -3db point of 50hz, giving you plenty of overlap to play with in the processor/electronic crossover settings, which is a much much better situation to have, especially with EDM music as a source.

Thinking of equalizers as a device to put something where there is nothing is not the right thought process.

Best regards,

John
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Alan Star

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2013, 08:38:35 am »

Ok, thanks John. If I could afford a couple more res 2, maybe that would do the trick altho as I say I do feel they are a bit weak in the really low midbass, especially perhaps for edm. Up top they sound fantastic. I was just looking at this graph for a cluster of four labs, I can see why I have to pull 60 to 90hz down, but it seems there is still some usable freq up to around 150hz, would it not sound ok or would it really make a big difference to have separate dedicated lo mid bass ?

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John Halliburton

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2013, 09:00:53 am »

Ok, thanks John. If I could afford a couple more res 2, maybe that would do the trick altho as I say I do feel they are a bit weak in the really low midbass, especially perhaps for edm. Up top they sound fantastic. I was just looking at this graph for a cluster of four labs, I can see why I have to pull 60 to 90hz down, but it seems there is still some usable freq up to around 150hz, would it not sound ok or would it really make a big difference to have separate dedicated lo mid bass ?



Try something first-flip the polarity on the speaker lines feeding either the tops or the subs, and see what happens to your midbass.  My first thought is that you have tops out of polarity with the subs.

Also, what are you using for a processor/electronic crossover between tops and subs?  You typically need a processor instead of a basic electronic crossover(although it will work), as there is a substantial delay in the Lab Sub, as the real source is 10-11' further away deep in the beginning of the horn path, and time aligning the subs and tops properly will help the overall performance of the system.

Best regards,

John
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Alan Star

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2013, 09:07:20 am »

Thanks John, I do check for phase coherance between the subs and the low mids, I flip it using test tones to see for volume increase or decrease at the xover point. I also use a spectrum analyser sometimes. I'm crossing them at 80 hz altho I find I get much better results by dropping the labs crossover point to around 60 hz and leave the lo mids at 80. both on a LR24 slope. Am using an XTA DP226 processor with audiocore on my laptop. I'm doing guesswork with delay timing between them but I do check they are in phase with each other.
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Alan Star

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2013, 09:09:55 am »

Running the f1s by themselves even, standalone, you notice they are just not super strong in the really lo mid bass. They are on quite a short horn after all.
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Alan Star

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2013, 09:53:14 am »

I could perhaps be using a bigger amp on the 15"s tho. I'm using 2x MC2 E25 to bi amp the f1's.
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John Halliburton

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2013, 11:07:25 pm »

I could perhaps be using a bigger amp on the 15"s tho. I'm using 2x MC2 E25 to bi amp the f1's.

You're crossing the Funktion's out at 80hz, and the Lab Subs at 60hz, and you're wondering why there's a weak midbass?

And at this point, you're checking polarity between tops and bottoms, not phase.

Cross them both at 80hz or so, and use parametrics to flatten out the hump in the Lab Sub's upper response, and I assume you're delaying the tops about 8-9ms, give or take.

Best regards,

John

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Alan Star

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2013, 01:49:06 am »

You're crossing the Funktion's out at 80hz, and the Lab Subs at 60hz, and you're wondering why there's a weak midbass?

Hi John, in my experience this does not cause weak midbass, which was already a problem, this is to do with upper sub bass which there was way too much of, sounds a lot cleaner like this. I have used full length midbass horns 4x 12" which gave way more punch than the 4x 15" in the res 2, using the same xover settings. So it's not a case of me wondering why there is weak lo midbass because I've heard the difference. My question is whether the lab sub is usable for lo mid bass up to 150hz or whether it would really be much better to have a separate horn for this ? I guess really the only way I'm going to know is to experiment with it myself. Just wondering if other people using lab subs for edm had explored with crossing them over higher and if anyone had achieved good results with this ?

And at this point, you're checking polarity between tops and bottoms, not phase.

I thought that by changing the polarity of one or the other would bring them either in or out of phase with each other ?

Cross them both at 80hz or so, and use parametrics to flatten out the hump in the Lab Sub's upper response, and I assume you're delaying the tops about 8-9ms, give or take.

Best regards,

John

I will experiment with using eq instead, and cross them both at 80hz, or I'm thinking I might try a higher xover point, perhaps 120 or 150hz and see how it sounds, thanks !
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Turbosound Flashlight + Lab Sub ?
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2013, 06:07:39 am »



I thought that by changing the polarity of one or the other would bring them either in or out of phase with each other ?


Phase and polarity are very different events.  Phase is time related.

Yes you can flip the polarity (you only have one of 2 choices-in or out) and the phase will change.

But changing the phase has nothing to do with polarity (you have millions of choices when you change the phase)

It is a VERY important difference.

The only way to adjust relative phase is with time.  Polarity has nothing to do with time.
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