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Author Topic: Splitting mic's and retaining phantom power  (Read 3731 times)

Ryan C. Davis

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Splitting mic's and retaining phantom power
« on: April 26, 2013, 11:52:01 PM »

Hey all,

Working on an estimate for a local city council chambers where they already have an installed sound system. Each member of the council has their own mic and there's a mic for others in the audience- this pipes over about a dozen overhead speakers.

They want a way to record proceedings digitally. The room also gets used as a court room and they're required by law to have the sessions recorded so that's what I'm bidding. In addition they want to add some installed mics on the ceiling to pickup what people say in the general seating area and where the defendant stands.

I don't want to pipe these new mics into the main mix because I'm worried it's going to feedback and/ or sound funny. Should I be concerned?

My solution was to add a second mixer, split the current mics so they go into both mixers, add the new mics only to the new mixer then send it to the recorder. If that's indeed a good way to go (go ahead and chime in here) I'm wondering how splitting the mics will work since they're using phantom power (shure goosenecks).

I'm also wondering if anyone has a recommendation on a ceiling mount condenser that I could use to pic up a broad area of coverage.

I just had this idea while typing this, what if I split the main out from the current mixer, run it into a single channel on the new one, then run the new mics directly to the new mixer?

Anyway I'd love to hear what you guys think.

TIA
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Ryan Davis

Tim Perry

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Re: Splitting mic's and retaining phantom power
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2013, 12:41:17 AM »

Sounds like a nightmare in progress.

The object will be to pickup as much of the audience as possible while rejecting the sound from the ceiling speakers.

Cardiod pattern ceiling mics are indicated. Some form of hanging choir mic such as fron countryman, akg or others.

Feed the main mixer into the left channel of the digital recorder for a "clean" recording, and the audience mics into the right channel.  No matter what you do its going to sound funky on that channel when the councilman are speaking .  It is also going to sound funky when someone from the audience speaks. A good amount of gated ACG is called for here.

If you can hang the mics so they are closer to the audio source then  they are to the distributes speakers system it would be best.

A sepret EQ for this channel it indicated... roll off the highs and lows to improve clarity of the vocal range and try to minimize noise from the air handling (HVAC) system
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Tom Bourke

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Re: Splitting mic's and retaining phantom power
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2013, 12:46:37 AM »

Most mic splits have a nonisolated out for use with phantom from one of the mixers.  The other outputs are transformer isolated, on good splitters, and do not pass phantom.  You pick one source to provide phantom.  Some splitters even have phantom built in.

The other problem you have is you do not want to just mix down and record that for court proceedings.  They will need each mic to a separate track. There are a few programs designed for court recording as well as standard multitrack recorders.  You want one of the court specific units because they are built around that task and are easy to use for people in the position of dealing with it.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Splitting mic's and retaining phantom power
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2013, 07:58:23 AM »

For the splits you could use a simple 'Y', the mixers should be able to accept seeing phantom from the other mixer.  But you may be better to use transformer splits with whichever mixer is most likely to always be in use with the mics on the direct output that passes phantom and the other mixer on an isolated output.  Radial Engineering, ProCo, Whirlwind and others offer multiple channel mic splits, I personally prefer to use those with Jensen or Lundahl transformers.  Another option is to use a split that allows inserting phantom at the split and a separate phantom power supply.

The council chamber and especially courtroom aspects may add some special considerations.  For example, for the Council Chamber application you may want the council and audience seating as separate zones.  You may also want to be able to mute the microphones for the audience but not for the recording.

If you are not familiar with courtroom system then that aspect can require numerous application specific considerations, especially if it is a jury courtroom.  For example, you may have to support sidebars where the attorneys approach the bench.  That means a sidebar mic at the bench to pick up the attorneys with that mic and the Judge's mic going to recording but not to the house.  You may even want to send masking noise to the house and jury speakers during sidebars.  You may want numerous zones (seating, well, jury, bench, etc.) so that you can mute and adjust volume separately for each zone.  You may also want some way for the Judge or Clerk to control everything.  And don't forget to address the Court Reporter if they have one or the possibility of their using an interpreter or remote interpretation services or even feeds to a Press area.

Interpretation and especially ALS are often critical components of Council Chamber and Courtroom audio systems.  And because of the courtroom aspect they often have to be IR so that they cannot be picked up outside the room.  Although wireless microphones are common for the Council Chamber use, for that same reason Courtrooms tend to avoid them unless they are IR or encrypted.

The mics over the seating are typically used for jury selection and/or entering pleas rather than during a trial and are primarily for for the Judge, Clerk and recording.  I find that low profile, white, omni boundary mic such as an AKG PZM10 or C562 CM, Clock Audio C 007, Audio-Technica ES945 or Shure MX935 is often good for this application unless you have a high ceiling, in which case you might want to look at hanging choir mics to get them closer to the people speaking.

For both bench/council table in both courtrooms and council chambers I like to use small speakers mounted in desktop enclosures or integrated into the millwork.  That allows each council member in that use or the Judge, Clerk, Bailiff, etc. in court use to adjust the volume of their own speaker.  Overhead speakers can work but tend to cover more area than desired and often turn into a battle in terms of the desired volume.

Because of all the different zoning, muting, automixing, remote control, etc. that can be involved I typically use matrix DSP devices for courtrooms and council chambers.
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Joseph D. Macry

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Re: Splitting mic's and retaining phantom power
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2013, 11:36:34 AM »

I'm also wondering if anyone has a recommendation on a ceiling mount condenser that I could use to pic up a broad area of coverage.

Consider this for your ceiling mount condenser mic.
http://www.akg.com/PZM11-837.html?pid=1112
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Joseph Macry,
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Craig Hauber

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Re: Splitting mic's and retaining phantom power
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2013, 11:28:54 AM »


Because of all the different zoning, muting, automixing, remote control, etc. that can be involved I typically use matrix DSP devices for courtrooms and council chambers.

Definitely!
Get all the inputs and outputs (including the recorder) into a common DSP system and do all the routing internally in a matrix.  Automix, limit and manage everything so non-skilled clerical staff can run the system easily.

Also don't forget future expansion such as videoconferencing and telephone feeds as they certainly will be needed and having a DSP already in place makes it a much simpler future addition.
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Craig Hauber
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Re: Splitting mic's and retaining phantom power
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2013, 11:28:54 AM »


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