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Author Topic: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility  (Read 35343 times)

Justin Philip

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Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #70 on: December 08, 2013, 12:05:24 am »

Indeed.

JP: Does the double-hang result from a congregational desire for a "stereo system"?  If so, the installer is guilty of supplying what was asked for rather than what would be correct...
Dick, you are right..everyone including me wanted a stereo system but I wouldn't have asked for it if it was not a viable option. Meaning, I repeatedly asked if it it would work for this room since it's wider than it is long. I was assured it wouldn't be an issue (i.e. as seen in the email above).

The center cluster design just seems so obvious.  >:(

I will get some concrete opinion next week from an audio "professional". I will keep yall posted.
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Cailen Waddell

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Re: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #71 on: December 08, 2013, 07:50:32 am »

I was also going to say a center cluster or exploded center cluster design....

Also, and maybe I am alone here, the PA is visually out of proportion to the stage.  While the way it sounds is very important, the aesthetics, in a church, should be equally important.   In one picture the subs partially block the view of the stonework around the cross, that would be unacceptable to me.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #72 on: December 08, 2013, 09:38:48 am »

  In one picture the subs partially block the view of the stonework around the cross, that would be unacceptable to me.
And also for most Churches.

When designing a system-one of first questions I ask are-are there any visual restrictions to be concerned with?

But it comes down to what is "most important".  And sadly I have seen quite a few places that the MOST IMPORTANT thing is to have a "line array".  Everything else be damned.

I guess having a long column of speakers is some peoples way of making up for their own lack of -----------------.

Why does having a "line array" somehow make people feel good?  Shouldn't the overall sound be most important-rather than what the speakers look like?

In most installs the goal is to have the speaker disappear as much as possible-except in line array installs in which they try to show them off as much as possible.

But it comes down to who is driving the project and their "desires".
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Ivan Beaver
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Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #73 on: December 08, 2013, 09:47:39 am »

Dick, you are right..everyone including me wanted a stereo system but I wouldn't have asked for it if it was not a viable option. Meaning, I repeatedly asked if it it would work for this room since it's wider than it is long. I was assured it wouldn't be an issue (i.e. as seen in the email above).

The center cluster design just seems so obvious.  >:(

I will get some concrete opinion next week from an audio "professional". I will keep yall posted.

You are getting advice from audio professionals. 

It's really difficult for me to not be critical of whoever nodded, smiled and said, "You want stereo?  Sure, no problem!"  I translate that as, "I could care less that it is unworkable and I'm going to be able to sell you twice as much gear."

You and your congregational family would seem to have been sold a bill of goods...but sold the one you asked for.

It's not a good situation except for the wallet of your consultants.
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David Sturzenbecher

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Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #74 on: December 08, 2013, 10:21:35 am »


It's not a good situation except for the wallet of your consultants.

Rereading the first post, there was no consultant on this job. It was a design build firm. Who make money off of the volume of product that is installed. 

"Most" real consultants don't make money from specing one product over another. Thats why unbiased specs typically have multiple acceptable products

Rereading the second post tim says...Your going to have slap back off that back wall...

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #75 on: December 08, 2013, 10:59:09 am »

Dick, you are right..everyone including me wanted a stereo system but I wouldn't have asked for it if it was not a viable option. Meaning, I repeatedly asked if it it would work for this room since it's wider than it is long. I was assured it wouldn't be an issue (i.e. as seen in the email above).

The center cluster design just seems so obvious.  >:(

I will get some concrete opinion next week from an audio "professional". I will keep yall posted.
The FIRST question I always ask is "WHY do you want stereo?"  People just "assume" stereo is better than mono.

And the usual excuse is "you have 2 ears".  OK, but if you are talking about speakers taking the place of people talking-then the "talker" only has ONE MOUTH-NOT TWO.  2 signals make for less intelligible sound quality.  A SINGLE source is always better.

Stereo is easy to  pull off in a small room.  But larger rooms get to be harder and harder.

In order for "stereo" to work-EACH speaker system has to FULLY cover the room BY ITSELF.  If it does not-then anything that is panned to that side will not be heard by the seats that it is not covering.  Simple as that.

So as long as you are willing to accept the fact that a large number of people will no hear the same thing-then that is fine.  So how was the mix today Ms Johnson?  I could not hear Mary singing.  OH that was because you were seated on the left side and she was panned to the right.

Is THAT what you want?  The goal should be (to me anyway) that everybody get THE SAME experience.  A "stereo" setup like you have will not give that.

Yes Stereo may seem to be really cool in the middle-but not so cool on the sides.  It depends on what is important to you-and to some people it is ALL about them and their needs-NOT the rest of the congregation. 

Yet they forget where the money came from to get the "toys" they want.

YEAH-We need more money to put in a system that will produce lower quality sound-YEAH that is an easy sell------------

But sadly most people don't realize that a mono system is in many cases the best solution-but all their lives they have heard that stereo is better.  It is a tough sell.  And very often the guy who is pitching the stereo system that costs more will win the bid-because of people "perception" of stereo vs mono.

Mono is so boring and old fashioned.  Yet it works better.

Think of it this way-when the Pastor is speaking-his voice should be appear to be coming from ONE location-not TWO.
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Ivan Beaver
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Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #76 on: December 08, 2013, 12:56:36 pm »

Rereading the first post, there was no consultant on this job. It was a design build firm. Who make money off of the volume of product that is installed. 

Yup, I got my terminology mixed up. 
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #77 on: December 08, 2013, 02:08:56 pm »



Rereading the second post tim says...Your going to have slap back off that back wall...

And this was meant regarding the speaker system but the O/P has gone on to say that he meant there is a significant (greater than 5s I believe) flutter echo in the room if you merely clap your hands. 
No speaker system will tame that.  Some could minimize the reaction with the room as far as 1st order reflections go but the room is a problem.
I am guessing no room acoustics consultant was on the project.

Sadly I think that this church built a nice looking but completely non-functional room space as far as audio is concerned and now the redesign required to fix the problems will cost far more than would have addressing them properly in the initial design phase.

Lee
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Lee Buckalew
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Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #78 on: December 08, 2013, 02:15:34 pm »

And this was meant regarding the speaker system but the O/P has gone on to say that he meant there is a significant (greater than 5s I believe) flutter echo in the room if you merely clap your hands. 
No speaker system will tame that.  Some could minimize the reaction with the room as far as 1st order reflections go but the room is a problem.
I am guessing no room acoustics consultant was on the project.

Sadly I think that this church built a nice looking but completely non-functional room space as far as audio is concerned and now the redesign required to fix the problems will cost far more than would have addressing them properly in the initial design phase.

Lee

Reply #1 from Mac:


"Aside from what I think could be a terrible architectural design, I think you will want delay systems for the last 6 or 7 rows. Up high under the lower ceiling like that the main arrays may not cut it. That is a lot of vertical angle to cover and it is easy to shortchange the back rows."

My feelings tend toward the question of stewardship.  To me, it's nigh on to impossible to justify wanton expenditure like this, no due diligence, just "spend the money"...but IME people will always find the money for what they want before they'll address actual needs.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 02:28:59 pm by dick rees »
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Doug Hammel

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Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #79 on: December 08, 2013, 02:42:32 pm »

Dick, you are right..everyone including me wanted a stereo system but I wouldn't have asked for it if it was not a viable option. Meaning, I repeatedly asked if it it would work for this room since it's wider than it is long. I was assured it wouldn't be an issue (i.e. as seen in the email above).

The center cluster design just seems so obvious.  >:(

I will get some concrete opinion next week from an audio "professional". I will keep yall posted.

I would also get some quotes from other integrators. 2nd and 3rd opinions will give you some contrasts and possibly other angles, no pun intended, on how someone else would approach this room. If the "flutter/echo" is that bad without the system on then you will definitely need an Acoustical Engineer to consult on the room even if it is already built. All the gear in the world will not overcome that.
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Doug Hammel

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Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #79 on: December 08, 2013, 02:42:32 pm »


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