ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11   Go Down

Author Topic: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility  (Read 36158 times)

Mac Kerr

  • Old enough to know better
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7055
  • Audio Plumber
Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #90 on: December 09, 2013, 02:26:52 PM »

Not to hijack this thread, but is there ever a time where a Stereo PA is acceptable? Is it perhaps possible to have a LCR system with music coming out LR in Stereo and Vocals in the center?

If the system is designed so that each speaker array covers the entire audience, either stereo or LCR can be fine. I almost always make the PA stereo, but it has to be designed to work that way.

It is often difficult to put a big speaker or array in the center due to sight lines to screens, or architectural detail.

Mac

Logged

Tommy Peel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1463
  • Longview, Texas
Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #91 on: December 09, 2013, 03:23:48 PM »

Not to hijack this thread, but is there ever a time where a Stereo PA is acceptable? Is it perhaps possible to have a LCR system with music coming out LR in Stereo and Vocals in the center?

I mix in a couple of smaller rooms regularly that are setup as "stereo" in that there is one top per side and the signal chain allows me to pan instruments to either side or run stereo sources through it in stereo. In reality the right speaker roughly covers the right side and the left covers the left side so almost everything(I'll usually pan the toms a little, occasionally run keys in stereo, and always run the effects in stereo) is center panned. IMO these systems sound good enough and cover the room good enough. I think in both situations a single speaker or cluster in the center might sound a little better but wouldn't be practical given the layout of the room.
Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9203
  • Atlanta GA
Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #92 on: December 09, 2013, 04:45:39 PM »

Not to hijack this thread, but is there ever a time where a Stereo PA is acceptable? Is it perhaps possible to have a LCR system with music coming out LR in Stereo and Vocals in the center?
That is the whole idea of LCR and the best usage.  Vocals will always sound better/clearer out of a single source of sound.

As Mac says-each of the 3 zones has to be able to cover the WHOLE room by itself.

So during the modeling process-you have to do 3 models and turn on each cluster one at a time and look for the coverage.

The same thing for doing the alignment and listening to see how well it covers.  Turn on JUST THE CENTER and see if it covers the whole room.  If it does not-then other plans need to be made-either a different design-or adding fill speakers for just that channel etc.
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Thad Kraus

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16
Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #93 on: December 09, 2013, 07:41:16 PM »

Much thanks for the insight into the issue. There was some discussion internally at the auditorium where I work about upgrading our speech reinforcement PA to one that is better suited to handle bands and live events as that is occurring more and more. The topic of LCR and stereo came up and we found this topic very fitting to what we were discussing.
Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9203
  • Atlanta GA
Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #94 on: December 09, 2013, 07:58:52 PM »

Much thanks for the insight into the issue. There was some discussion internally at the auditorium where I work about upgrading our speech reinforcement PA to one that is better suited to handle bands and live events as that is occurring more and more. The topic of LCR and stereo came up and we found this topic very fitting to what we were discussing.
Assuming that the proper coverage is provided-an LCR system will cost more.

ONE THING that many overlook is how to OPERATE an LCR system.  YOU DO NOT run the same signal to all the speakers-a common mistake that many make.

Typically run vocals to the center and musical instruments to the L/R-doing a little bit of panning to give some space to the music.

Since speech is processed on the "Math" side of the brain-we need it to be as clean as possible-hence the reason for a single source of sound.
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Thad Kraus

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 16
Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #95 on: December 09, 2013, 08:02:32 PM »

Assuming that the proper coverage is provided-an LCR system will cost more.

ONE THING that many overlook is how to OPERATE an LCR system.  YOU DO NOT run the same signal to all the speakers-a common mistake that many make.

Typically run vocals to the center and musical instruments to the L/R-doing a little bit of panning to give some space to the music.

Since speech is processed on the "Math" side of the brain-we need it to be as clean as possible-hence the reason for a single source of sound.
Which is a bit easier to do on some of the new digital boards (or even some analog boards with the mono out) because the digital boards feature LCR output with the ability to assign certain channels to either the Center or the LR cluster. Correct?
Logged

Ivan Beaver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9203
  • Atlanta GA
Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #96 on: December 09, 2013, 08:31:44 PM »

Which is a bit easier to do on some of the new digital boards (or even some analog boards with the mono out) because the digital boards feature LCR output with the ability to assign certain channels to either the Center or the LR cluster. Correct?
It is easy to do on an analog console.  Simply choose a post aux send as the center channel.  Then don't assign the "center" channels to a sub group or the L/R output.

Now the channels will "mix" as normal-they will just go to the post aux out instead of the L/R as the other channels.

On most analog consoles with a "mono" output you cannot assign the channels directly to the mono out-they have to go through the L/R-which eliminates any possibility of LCR
Logged
A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

PHYSICS- NOT FADS!

Justin Philip

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 46
Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #97 on: December 09, 2013, 10:51:38 PM »

Again you are missing the point.  With an LCR- EACH of the elements HAS to cover the entire room.

What speaker system would you put in the middle (center) that would cover the whole room? Especially down front left and right?

While the "concept" sounds good-the actual implementation is not always so easy.

Unless of course you don't mind some people not hearing well.

So some people can't hear the center-others can't hear the left and others can't hear the right.

So you are just adding MORE seats that can't hear everything.

Kinda sounds like a step backwards to me.

And don't let anybody tell you that you can put a center hang in front of the subs.

How are you possibly going to align it?  If you think you can just delay the mains-think again.

Consider this:  With a flown cluster-the sound from the speakers that reaches the audience is already "late" reaching the audience-as compared to an acoustic source on stage.  This is partially due to the path length from the speakers to the audience-plus any delay in the console (if digital), the DSP etc.

So adding more delay (and it would be more than just the physical distance between the subs and mains, due to processing/crossover filters etc-just makes the sound from the mains even later.

Just sayin' you need to consider more than the "simple" ideas.
Gotcha. So in theory LCR doesn't work in this room either right? Sorry I am still learning all this.

Is there any way we can redo the setup with the existing speakers? Or do we need new speakers to do the mono clusters with side fills that was recommended in the thread earlier?

Knocking down walls ain't gonna happen. lol. hell, half the people don't even think there's a problem.
Logged

Justin Philip

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 46
Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #98 on: December 09, 2013, 10:54:17 PM »

On most analog consoles with a "mono" output you cannot assign the channels directly to the mono out-they have to go through the L/R-which eliminates any possibility of LCR
I was able to do mono output on my AH zed mixer. That's how I ran the "aux fed" subs.
http://zkcd.net/_gfx/matos/dyn/large/allen-heath-zed-428_2.jpg
Logged

Cailen Waddell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1428
Re: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #99 on: December 09, 2013, 11:37:15 PM »


Gotcha. So in theory LCR doesn't work in this room either right? Sorry I am still learning all this.

Is there any way we can redo the setup with the existing speakers? Or do we need new speakers to do the mono clusters with side fills that was recommended in the thread earlier?

Knocking down walls ain't gonna happen. lol. hell, half the people don't even think there's a problem.

Redeployment may be an option, but I doubt anyone here is going to run a model for you, and realistically that's what needs to be done  there is nothing wrong with the gear, except it might not be the right gear for you. Get the acoustics under control first. Then look at what is and isn't working. If the acoustics are crap, how will you be able to tell if the redeployment works.  Solve one problem at a time.
Logged

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #99 on: December 09, 2013, 11:37:15 PM »


Pages: 1 ... 8 9 [10] 11   Go Up
 



Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.029 seconds with 19 queries.