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Author Topic: [UPDATED] Need advice on given design for new facility  (Read 30202 times)

Justin Philip

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Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2013, 05:58:25 pm »

What's with the massive gap between the 3rd and 4th box?  I entered your approximate dimensions (gathered from looking at the LAC drawings) and was able to get a much smoother response in my calculations.  I will still agree that you're definitely looking at an array that's too small.  I got it looking pretty decent with 3 4883 over 12 4886 (and had the ability to hit closer seats with the array).  I also got it looking not to terrible with just 6 VTX. 

And I'd personally add a few ground subs.
I went up a pair on the tops, took away a pair of the LF extensions and instead added 3 dual 18" S28 vtx series subs. so now it's:

L - R
9 + 9 = 4886 (powered by 3 MA-12000i)
2 + 2 = 4883 (powered by 2 MA-12000i)
..3... = S28 dual 18" hung in the middle (powered by 3 MA-12000i)

I am going to see how the EASE model looks with the changes and post it when I get that next week.
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2013, 07:25:13 pm »

I went up a pair on the tops, took away a pair of the LF extensions and instead added 3 dual 18" S28 vtx series subs. so now it's:

L - R
9 + 9 = 4886 (powered by 3 MA-12000i)
2 + 2 = 4883 (powered by 2 MA-12000i)
..3... = S28 dual 18" hung in the middle (powered by 3 MA-12000i)

I am going to see how the EASE model looks with the changes and post it when I get that next week.

Isn't there a designer responsible for this? If you are going to redesign the system to fit your or anyone else's idea why not go all the way and put different speakers in there?

I admit I originally misread the numbers and though it was 4888 not 4886. Try 6 4888 and see what happens. Or try d&b V8s and V12s, or L'Acoustic Karas. The d&b array design software is easy to use and free, Soundvision from L'Acoustic is great array design software, but it's neither free nor easy to use. L'Acoustic has recently released data for EASE.

Mac
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2013, 08:10:28 pm »

Isn't there a designer responsible for this?
And just to add-Who is going to be responsible for the performance of the system?  The designer or someone who got advice off the internet?

It is one thing to get advice about things like consoles and mics-but they don't affect how well a system works-or covers a room.

The loudspeaker system is the single biggest thing that affects how well the job "turns out'.  There are lots of "variables" involved-that are not always evident to the casual observer.

It does seem odd (to me anyway) that only one model loudspeaker is being looked at/or considered.

And has been brought up several times-a simple 2D plot does little to provide useful information regarding actual coverage.

A proper coverage plot should be one of the first things that should be done on a job.  Knowing the proper coverage (and loudspeakers required to do so) can greatly affect to cost of the job.

What if it is discovered later that more loudspeakers are needed to cover the room-where is that money going to come from?  Are other parts of the project going to be cut?  Smaller console?  No wireless and so forth.

Knowing the proper loudspeaker design to begin with is a very important start.

And as others have suggested-why is a line array "apparently" the only option for such a small room?  If money is a concern-there are less expensive options available with a different design.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2013, 06:43:06 am »

Isn't there a designer responsible for this? If you are going to redesign the system to fit your or anyone else's idea why not go all the way and put different speakers in there?
And just to add-Who is going to be responsible for the performance of the system?  The designer or someone who got advice off the internet?
It's not a technical issue but I think it is not real clear what role the designer is playing and while you described your services in general terms, it is also not clear what goals or criteria may have been determined by them versus defined to them.  Who decided on two line arrays, was that completely the designer's decision or was it defined to them?  Are the specific products involved something that came out after assessing different options, something the church defined/requested or a result of the designer being a Harman dealer?  How was any budget defined, was a conceptual design developed and priced or was a budget set prior to any design or even any Needs Analysis?  It's not an issue of  questioning what has already occurred but rather understanding how you got to this point, any specific goals or criteria that were defined in that process, what options are practical and the role of the designer.  For example, if the church specifically requested two line arrays or the product options are for some reason limited to Harman then that would be good to know since it could affect suggesting anything else.

He will give me the EASE models by next week. Not sure if it's the right way to do it but here's their reasoning:
"Due to the timelines expressed to us, we have been trying to work to finalize all of the necessary details for everything the church needs installed in the project (fine tuning the details of equipment/functionality) therefore, since we knew the hanging points from the Sound Mapping and JBL Calculations, finishing the design/EASE model was pushed back to try not to hold up the project and occupancy date."
I could be wrong but I would guess that this is design/build and the designer is wanting to get a contract for the system equipment and installation in place before investing in the time to prepare an EASE model.  That is understandable if they are not being contracted separately for design services.  However, you then seem to be using EASE to tweak the solution already defined rather than using it to help define what may be the most appropriate solution in the first place.  More how to best apply what you already have than determining what would be best to have.

I will check on this. My understanding is the electrical room is where the amplifiers will be located
Makes sense but from experience I would make sure everyone understands that as not only may multiple parties (Electrical Engineer, lighting designer, AV designer and possibly others) all be vying for that space for their gear but the EE may see an "Electrical Room" as their space with it possibly being used by others if there is any space left after accounting for their equipment and the associated required clearances.
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Justin Philip

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Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2013, 11:02:05 pm »

It's not a technical issue but I think it is not real clear what role the designer is playing and while you described your services in general terms, it is also not clear what goals or criteria may have been determined by them versus defined to them.  Who decided on two line arrays, was that completely the designer's decision or was it defined to them?  Are the specific products involved something that came out after assessing different options, something the church defined/requested or a result of the designer being a Harman dealer?  How was any budget defined, was a conceptual design developed and priced or was a budget set prior to any design or even any Needs Analysis?  It's not an issue of  questioning what has already occurred but rather understanding how you got to this point, any specific goals or criteria that were defined in that process, what options are practical and the role of the designer.  For example, if the church specifically requested two line arrays or the product options are for some reason limited to Harman then that would be good to know since it could affect suggesting anything else.
I could be wrong but I would guess that this is design/build and the designer is wanting to get a contract for the system equipment and installation in place before investing in the time to prepare an EASE model.  That is understandable if they are not being contracted separately for design services.  However, you then seem to be using EASE to tweak the solution already defined rather than using it to help define what may be the most appropriate solution in the first place.  More how to best apply what you already have than determining what would be best to have.
So the story is that we had a really good designer who started working with the architect etc and we were very confident in his abilities. Unfortunately his wife got VERY sick and he had to abort the project. He was the one that recommended the JBLs. So when we found the 2nd designer, we said we got a recommendation to go with the vertecs and honestly we probably shouldn't have said that.

As for the 2nd part of your post, officially we hadn't signed with the 2nd designer (at least on paper) but it was common understanding we were going to go with them for install also. But you're right about their reluctance to give us the EASE model without the official signature.

Here's the EASE model btw which I just got:
"Attached is a rendering of the main sanctuary with 9 VT4886 Boxes between 1kHz and 4kHz.  More to come, but this is a starting point so you can see the even coverage."

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Chris Johnson [UK]

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Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2013, 04:23:25 am »

I've been following this thread - I think its always interesting to see the responses to this kind of design problem. I deal with systems like this all the time, and so its always interesting to see how others approach it.

I would say a few things.

1) Apologies if this is already asked and answered, but I presume your designer knows his work is being posted on a public forum? If it were me, I would make sure I retained IP for all design documents until paid for in full at the very least, and may not want them posted on the internet.

2) There is nothing inherently wrong with vertec. There is plenty of good PA in the world, and I've worked with Vertec systems that sound great, even if my first choice might be something else.

3) You need to understand that just like in the real world, all of us on these forums have our own reasons for pushing our favorite solutions and that they may or may not be relevant to you. Take everything here with a grain of salt. There are plenty of intelligent and helpful people here, but as a matter of diligence, don't take anything at face value. Work with your designer to achieve your desired results.

4) There are many solutions to this problem. Lots of combinations of boxes, amps, rigging plots, etc.. will give you a system that meets your design criteria. You are not searching for the 1 solution out of millions of options that will work - you are trying to ensure, your specification for end results is met.

--------------

That aside, my thoughts on the system are:

-Rooms like this are challenging because they call for progressively narrower dispersion towards the back as the room curves in on itself. If you go with a line array product, I'd be leaning toward a product that can give you boxes with multiple patterns in the same array. Like d&b V series.

-Even though you certainly could manage without delays, you will end up putting a lot of energy on the side walls by trying to do so. I'd have delays just to improve speech intelligibility for the back rows, and to avoid having to excite the back and side walls as much.

-I wouldn't fly subs left and right if possible. Just like with ground stacks, you'll get lots of comb filtering, and a power-alley effect. A flown central sub cluster (thats ideally directional) would give you smoother coverage.

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2013, 08:11:10 am »



Here's the EASE model btw which I just got:
"Attached is a rendering of the main sanctuary with 9 VT4886 Boxes between 1kHz and 4kHz.  More to come, but this is a starting point so you can see the even coverage."
Not be "nitpicking" but when you average a wide band of freq (in this case 2 octaves), I would HOPE it looks pretty smooth. The wider the freq range of freq-no interference-wide areas of "plots" can really change how things "look". 

But each designer has their own way of doing things.  Just make sure that all ideas are held to the same standard.

It is not uncommon to see what looks like a really smooth plot win out over a much rougher one-because of the way it was presented-yet the "rougher one" is actually smoother-once the system gets installed.

There are all kinds of tools in EASE to make a response look smooth.  I would ask for much narrower slices of response (say no more than 1 octave) and multiple plots.  For starters I like to see 500, 2K and 8 K.  4K is another I commonly look at first.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2013, 09:04:49 am »

Here's the EASE model btw which I just got:
"Attached is a rendering of the main sanctuary with 9 VT4886 Boxes between 1kHz and 4kHz.  More to come, but this is a starting point so you can see the even coverage."
First, sorry to hear that happened with your original designer, I've been through similar situations and understand they can be challenging for all involved.

Ivan beat me to it but I have to say that what the model shows is not what I expected and that may be a matter of understanding what is presented.  EASE allows adjusting various settings and parameters to look at different things, which can be very useful but can also provide different results based on those settings, thus a few clarifications on the results shown may help us all better understand what they represent.

The first thing I noted is that the model appears to be showing the coverage of both arrays at once as though it is a mono system.  Is that what is intended or is the system to be a two channel system and thus should probably address the coverage of each array independently as well as looking at the results for mono sources?

Related to that, as Ivan mentioned, with both arrays having a wide horizontal pattern then with both on I would expect the prediction to show interaction where the coverage of the arrays overlaps.  The apparent absence of any such interaction may be factor of the results being averaged over multiple frequencies and/or interference not being turned on, but that may also not be an accurate representation of the resulting real world performance.

Just to be clear, I am not questioning what was done or the system proposed, but I believe that a critical aspect of predictive modeling or any analysis is trying to understand results that vary from what you expected in order to improve the analysis and/or increase your understanding.
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Justin Philip

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Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2013, 04:13:10 pm »

Here's 2K for 8 boxes OR 9 boxes.
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Ed Walters

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Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2013, 05:00:48 pm »

Here's 2K for 8 boxes OR 9 boxes.
There is no way on earth the ACTUAL response can look this smooth at 2k with two sets of speakers running. You are being misled, through manipulation of the data/smoothing/etc. There will be comb filtering EVERYWHERE at 2k with two widely separated sources. That is simply the physics of sound, and cannot be overcome.  I've been watching this thread, and you've heard some good advice. It is time to ask for a demo.....walk the room with two line arrays pushing mono pink noise, and it will all become clear.....

Ed Walters
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Re: Need advice on given design for new facility
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2013, 05:00:48 pm »


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