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Author Topic: Multi Channel 25V Amplifier  (Read 7199 times)

Alan Clayton

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Multi Channel 25V Amplifier
« on: March 27, 2013, 02:13:22 pm »

Hey all. Been a while!

I'm working trough a concept. I need a multi-channel amplifier capable of 25Volt constant voltage output. When I say multi-channel, let's say 12 or more. I DON'T need a lot of power per channel, 5-10 watts per channel. Don't need processing, since it's for a paging application, it needs to be reliable, but not "High Quality" (Sub 1% THD not necessary.)
More concerned about high channel density in a small package: 1 or 2 Rack spaces per 12 or 16 channels. Moduler would be cool, card cage with individual amps inserted.  (I'm well familiar with the standard fare, Crown Cts, QSC CX, Ashly ne, LabGruppen, etc. Not what I'm looking for.)

Is anyone aware of such a beast?
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Multi Channel 25V Amplifier
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2013, 02:59:09 pm »

that is not a common configuration.

Are you saying 12 or more individual 10W channels?

I didn't see TOA or Peavey listed, they both have significant installed sound offerings while nothing exactly like you describe.

25V is a fairly standard (low) constant voltage. Can you rephrase your request with clearer matrix if how many inputs feeding how many 10W outputs, overlap between inputs/outputs? 

You may need to mix and match mixers with small shoebox amps. I've seen CV amps as small as 5W. Few modest install mixer-amps support much more than 8 inputs IIRC.

JR

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Mac Kerr

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Re: Multi Channel 25V Amplifier
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2013, 03:09:36 pm »

Hey all. Been a while!

I'm working trough a concept. I need a multi-channel amplifier capable of 25Volt constant voltage output. When I say multi-channel, let's say 12 or more. I DON'T need a lot of power per channel, 5-10 watts per channel. Don't need processing, since it's for a paging application, it needs to be reliable, but not "High Quality" (Sub 1% THD not necessary.)
More concerned about high channel density in a small package: 1 or 2 Rack spaces per 12 or 16 channels. Moduler would be cool, card cage with individual amps inserted.  (I'm well familiar with the standard fare, Crown Cts, QSC CX, Ashly ne, LabGruppen, etc. Not what I'm looking for.)

Is anyone aware of such a beast?

Why not the usual suspects if they fulfill the spec? Anything over 80W/8Ω will give you at least 20W/25V. Two Powersoft OttoCanali 1204 will give you 16ch of 80W/8Ω amplifiers in 2 RU. If you hang 20W worth of 25V transformers on each channel you will be at a load on the amp of about 20Ω/ch.

Mac
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Alan Clayton

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Re: Multi Channel 25V Amplifier
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2013, 04:04:45 pm »

Thanks guys for your input

Well, Like I said, it's a concept. Just wondering if there was anything out there that I had not seen.

If you are familiar with the Bogen/Dukane/Rauland systems, central amplifier with switching cards. Looking to do something similar, but instead have a dedicated amplifier channel for each "port."

It's not really a matter of power, or how many speakers on a channel, as there would be no more than 1 or 2, 8" garden variety ceiling speakers on each channel.

So high density, low power, compact package, 25 Volt. The closest I've come is an IED
16 channel, but it's much bigger and more w/ch.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Multi Channel 25V Amplifier
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2013, 05:42:45 pm »

A Biamp AudiaFLEX with six IP-2 input cards and six PA-2 amp cards can give you 12 mic/line in and 12 amp channels out at 5W or 10W per channel all in 2RU, but the amps are intended to drive 4, 6 or 8 Ohm low impedance loads.


The Biamp MCA 8050 with the optional TDT50 output transformers would give eight 50W 25V/70V/100V channels in 2RU.


Four Stewart Audio FLX80-4-70V amps would provide sixteen 80W@70.7/100V channels with DSP in 2RU.
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Richard Turner

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Re: Multi Channel 25V Amplifier
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2013, 06:45:10 pm »

Didnt the old school PA stuff work the opposite way, 1 large amplifier and a switchbank , toggled which speakers you wanted to adress on and off with a bank of switches?

How may sources in and how many zones out do you need?
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Alan Clayton

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Re: Multi Channel 25V Amplifier
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2013, 11:59:46 am »

Didnt the old school PA stuff work the opposite way, 1 large amplifier and a switchbank , toggled which speakers you wanted to adress on and off with a bank of switches?

How may sources in and how many zones out do you need?

Yes, but you have some issues with that. For example, a room tapped at one watt might be fine for one classroom, but too loud or not loud enough for another. Or fine one year when it's a High School Classroom, but not the next year when that room becomes a resource room. The only way to change is to pull & re-tap the speaker. With an amplifier channel dedicated to the point, you could make a volume adjustment at the head-end, perhaps even remotely.

And remember that these systems were designed when amplifiers were big and expensive, as was computer controlled matrix.

In my concept, it would be scalable. A card cage with plug in amps? 1 Amp per card?
16 Channel card cage?  1/2 dozen inputs,  200, 300, 500 outputs?
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Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC

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Re: Multi Channel 25V Amplifier
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2013, 12:56:10 pm »

Quote
In my concept, it would be scalable. A card cage with plug in amps? 1 Amp per card?
16 Channel card cage?  1/2 dozen inputs,  200, 300, 500 outputs?

Well, my opinion given that, is that you need to look beyond "old technology" and into powered IP addressable speakers. But don't ask me if something that fits that exact spec exists.
 
-Hal
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Alan Clayton

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Re: Multi Channel 25V Amplifier
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2013, 10:06:08 am »


Well, my opinion given that, is that you need to look beyond "old technology" and into powered IP addressable speakers. But don't ask me if something that fits that exact spec exists.
 
-Hal

Fair enough, but powered IP addressable speakers are still big bucks, > $300 per speaker + POE switches, software, interfaces etc... "Old Technology" is @ $200, which is the neighborhood I'm aiming for.
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Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC

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Re: Multi Channel 25V Amplifier
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2013, 06:43:08 pm »

Fair enough, but powered IP addressable speakers are still big bucks, > $300 per speaker + POE switches, software, interfaces etc... "Old Technology" is @ $200, which is the neighborhood I'm aiming for.

Yeah, but what you want doesn't exist. Kinda like what's happening with business phones, they are all going IP now. They cost twice as much as the old analog or digital but soon they will be your only choice. Not real great to hear if you need a couple of hundred.
 
-Hal
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Scott Hofmann

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Re: Multi Channel 25V Amplifier
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2013, 10:18:35 am »

I guess I just don't understand why this is such a complicated problem. If you want remote, individual, adjustable volume levels for the speakers in each room, why can't you have one large 25v amplifier and then a 25v volume control (transformer) for each room on rack panels next to the amp. You would have to run separate speaker lines to each room anyway with the "amplifier per room" approach. www.lowellmfg.com/technical/audiospecs/1179%20LVC%20Series%20volume%20controls.pdf
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Scott Hofmann

Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC

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Re: Multi Channel 25V Amplifier
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2013, 05:22:41 pm »

I guess I just don't understand why this is such a complicated problem. If you want remote, individual, adjustable volume levels for the speakers in each room, why can't you have one large 25v amplifier and then a 25v volume control (transformer) for each room on rack panels next to the amp.

I would think that would be the first thing to come to mind so I didn't even mention it. Looks like posts #5 and #6 skirted the issue. I think he's looking for multiple sources also?
 
-Hal
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Scott Hofmann

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Re: Multi Channel 25V Amplifier
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2013, 11:45:16 pm »

I was just going on the basis of his first post which said it was a paging application.
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Scott Hofmann

Tom Bourke

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Re: Multi Channel 25V Amplifier
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2013, 12:34:04 am »


Yeah, but what you want doesn't exist. Kinda like what's happening with business phones, they are all going IP now. They cost twice as much as the old analog or digital but soon they will be your only choice. Not real great to hear if you need a couple of hundred.
 
-Hal
Phone systems are changing.  Over all cost is coming down, if you look past the old school “big names”  They are use to selling VERY expensive head units and reasonably expensive phones.  Now a phone system just needs a low end server and some network switches.  Intercom is taking the same route.  I have worked with the Bogen and Simplex systems.  The Simplex is similar to what the OP is talking about.  I think it is over priced junk, but then that could also be the fault of a sloppy company getting all the local installs about a decade or two ago.

Very high channel count and density is easy, nothing more than an IC with a heat sink now.  However the cost to home run “special” cable drives the cost up.  Inflexibility of such a system is also a big problem.  The cost of VOIP is dropping very fast.  If I were specking a system that needed individual control like that I would jump right to VOIP.  Any modern building is going to have a network system any way.  Just build communication into it directly.  In the long run the cost is lower.

As for volume per room they already have speakers with volume controls build in.  All those problems have been solved for 30+ years.
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Brad Weber

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Re: Multi Channel 25V Amplifier
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2013, 07:47:16 am »

Yes, but you have some issues with that. For example, a room tapped at one watt might be fine for one classroom, but too loud or not loud enough for another. Or fine one year when it's a High School Classroom, but not the next year when that room becomes a resource room. The only way to change is to pull & re-tap the speaker. With an amplifier channel dedicated to the point, you could make a volume adjustment at the head-end, perhaps even remotely.

And remember that these systems were designed when amplifiers were big and expensive, as was computer controlled matrix.

In my concept, it would be scalable. A card cage with plug in amps? 1 Amp per card?
16 Channel card cage?  1/2 dozen inputs,  200, 300, 500 outputs?
Also keep in mind that many newer school announcement or paging systems are also intended to be able to serve as Emergency Communication or Mass Notification Systems which can get into numerous other specific requirements in terms of the intelligibility provided, being monitored and so on.
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