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Author Topic: Lots of cash spent and still trying to tweek eaw 650e srx 728s OR? 725 etc  (Read 4836 times)

Andrew Klingensmith

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Disclaimer: OK....I was going to just add on/post on to some of the many, already established threads with the debates over 650's versus SRX, etc but a little pop up window said "are you sure? this subject hasn't been discussed in over 120 days". So I guess I will start anew

My current PA, aka "the money pit", is getting where it's allot invested for a the amount of sound work I do (not tons) I am STILL trying to get to where I am happy with the sound

the rig is:
8 Pcs of the EAW 650e (but in most cases I would never use more then 2 or 3 per side)
8 pcs of the JBL SRX728s 218 subs, and I most often use 2 per side for the typical 700 person show

...Making these 2 boxes 650e/728 work together in a way that I like has been a little challenging. I actually had a better all around sound when I was running my old EV dms2181 subs (more or less the old MT2 "sideway" over/under subs) and when I moved to the JBL 728 subwoofer, at first I was like "WOW, these things cranks!!!" but now it sounds to me like it's more this huge, puffy 'whomp' where it sure grabs your attention...and it's putting out....but there isn't much definition and it sounds more like a big boom box and we're not really hearing all the detail and 'warmth'. It also seems like the bass player might hit some notes to whwn it gets in the sub it's BOOM BOOM like too much but other notes on the neck not so much. Yes, I am sure the sound guys are using compressors

My FOH rack is

UX8800 processor, set to run the tops bi amp (gray box EAW), and then the subs off an aux  at a simple 80hz crossover point (using the inputs on the UX8800 as 1&2 IN for the tops bi-amp L/R, and 3rd input as sub in

I use a qsc plx 3602 for EACH side of the 650's.....low on one side of the amp, mid/high on the other
So 2 qsc plx 3602's, one for each side L/R for the tops

Then I have been using the QSC rmx5050 for the subs, I have 2 of them. I normally can run 2 subs off each side of a power amp, as it doesn't seem to mind 2 ohms per side
 
OK, with the 'history" you see above, here are some questions:

1) I have yet to try the EAW tops tri amp. I do in fact have laying around a RMX4050hd I could use if I wanted to move to a 3 way application. Or, I could buy another plx3602 to try to triamp...I have gone this far.....but already having an extra 4050hd it would be nice if I could use on the 15's of the 650's IF tri amp somehow would help 'clean up' the sound of the rig. My old PA tops were just bi-amp EV xi-1122, and truthfully, I think those sounded better then these 630's but I couldn't get the vocal to throw far enough outdoors to cover 1000 people so i sold them to get the 650's. While nothing is blown on the 650's, I always wish I could compare them side by side with someone that has the same boxes   

2) I have a unused dbx480 if it offered anything. I was planning to put it in a rack and create a 4 mix monitor rack with 6 pcs of the 712m I got not long ago, but the FOH is first priority to me. I have tons of the older QSC HPR series around (which I actually like allot) so ...480 if it can help

3) Another thought...a guy in town is selling 6 pcs of the JBL 725 (double 15 box). I sometimes wonder if I am downgrading if I went I sold all 8 of my 650e and got them. While my guy says it will be a slight downgrade, I wonder if it would be more 'plug and play' and easier and faster to tweak out a good sound. So I wonder, in case someone out there has both....would the 725 be a step down from the 650i?

...my next check is to check polarity (phase) on the rig. But on the cheapo tester set up (Galaxy Audio Cricket) it says some PA boxes are made to be wired out of phase between components on purpose, and one unnamed 'famous maker' does it often on their PA boxes

One final note: several of the national B or C acts have brought their own touring sound engineers. Many have their own mics, but ours was good anyways. So if the first reaction is it's the sound guys fault, I have had some fairly well known sound guys mix on the rig. They seemed OK with it, but I hear it's still not quite right. Truthfully a 3 way qsc hpr153i on the hpr118i has close, if not better, sound quality. 
 




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Andrew

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Spenser Hamilton

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Disclaimer: OK....I was going to just add on/post on to some of the many, already established threads with the debates over 650's versus SRX, etc but a little pop up window said "are you sure? this subject hasn't been discussed in over 120 days". So I guess I will start anew

My current PA, aka "the money pit", is getting where it's allot invested for a the amount of sound work I do (not tons) I am STILL trying to get to where I am happy with the sound

the rig is:
8 Pcs of the EAW 650e (but in most cases I would never use more then 2 or 3 per side)
8 pcs of the JBL SRX728s 218 subs, and I most often use 2 per side for the typical 700 person show

...Making these 2 boxes 650e/728 work together in a way that I like has been a little challenging. I actually had a better all around sound when I was running my old EV dms2181 subs (more or less the old MT2 "sideway" over/under subs) and when I moved to the JBL 728 subwoofer, at first I was like "WOW, these things cranks!!!" but now it sounds to me like it's more this huge, puffy 'whomp' where it sure grabs your attention...and it's putting out....but there isn't much definition and it sounds more like a big boom box and we're not really hearing all the detail and 'warmth'. It also seems like the bass player might hit some notes to whwn it gets in the sub it's BOOM BOOM like too much but other notes on the neck not so much. Yes, I am sure the sound guys are using compressors

My FOH rack is

UX8800 processor, set to run the tops bi amp (gray box EAW), and then the subs off an aux  at a simple 80hz crossover point (using the inputs on the UX8800 as 1&2 IN for the tops bi-amp L/R, and 3rd input as sub in

I use a qsc plx 3602 for EACH side of the 650's.....low on one side of the amp, mid/high on the other
So 2 qsc plx 3602's, one for each side L/R for the tops

Then I have been using the QSC rmx5050 for the subs, I have 2 of them. I normally can run 2 subs off each side of a power amp, as it doesn't seem to mind 2 ohms per side
 
OK, with the 'history" you see above, here are some questions:

1) I have yet to try the EAW tops tri amp. I do in fact have laying around a RMX4050hd I could use if I wanted to move to a 3 way application. Or, I could buy another plx3602 to try to triamp...I have gone this far.....but already having an extra 4050hd it would be nice if I could use on the 15's of the 650's IF tri amp somehow would help 'clean up' the sound of the rig. My old PA tops were just bi-amp EV xi-1122, and truthfully, I think those sounded better then these 630's but I couldn't get the vocal to throw far enough outdoors to cover 1000 people so i sold them to get the 650's. While nothing is blown on the 650's, I always wish I could compare them side by side with someone that has the same boxes   

2) I have a unused dbx480 if it offered anything. I was planning to put it in a rack and create a 4 mix monitor rack with 6 pcs of the 712m I got not long ago, but the FOH is first priority to me. I have tons of the older QSC HPR series around (which I actually like allot) so ...480 if it can help

3) Another thought...a guy in town is selling 6 pcs of the JBL 725 (double 15 box). I sometimes wonder if I am downgrading if I went I sold all 8 of my 650e and got them. While my guy says it will be a slight downgrade, I wonder if it would be more 'plug and play' and easier and faster to tweak out a good sound. So I wonder, in case someone out there has both....would the 725 be a step down from the 650i?

...my next check is to check polarity (phase) on the rig. But on the cheapo tester set up (Galaxy Audio Cricket) it says some PA boxes are made to be wired out of phase between components on purpose, and one unnamed 'famous maker' does it often on their PA boxes

One final note: several of the national B or C acts have brought their own touring sound engineers. Many have their own mics, but ours was good anyways. So if the first reaction is it's the sound guys fault, I have had some fairly well known sound guys mix on the rig. They seemed OK with it, but I hear it's still not quite right. Truthfully a 3 way qsc hpr153i on the hpr118i has close, if not better, sound quality.

Have you tested the 728s? I can't say I've ever gotten a sound that was "puffy" or "boomy" out of ours.

No personal experience with 650s, specs seem to indicate that they have a higher max spl than the 725s, using more than two 725s per side isn't always possible either. IME two 725s over two 728s per side is a formidable little rig.
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Bob Leonard

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I'm not sure that moving to the 725s would be a downgrade at all. The 650 is a wonderful box, but compared one to the other, when properly processed you might be hard pressed to pick one over the other.

Being the JBL fan that I am I run 725s over 718s and over the years have had nothing but good sound and good luck with these boxes. My current stage rig includes an APB Pro House, which alone can make almost anything sound good, however, the real breakthrough in sonic clarity and definition came after I had been through a number of DSPs including a dbx 260 and 480. Moving to a dbx 4800 made all the difference in the world with JBLs boxes. The bottom end is now very well defined, mids and high end sounds play better amoung themselves, and the experience is overall much more satisfying.

I can't say what the UX8800 will do for JBLs SRX series boxes, but that might be where you want to start looking for your solution. I might even go as far as to say that the dbx DSPs might work better with EAWs boxes than the UX8800 works with the JBL boxes. find someone who can let you use a dbx DSP for a night and give it a shot.
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Kim Guibord

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Disclaimer: OK....I was going to just add on/post on to some of the many, already established threads with the debates over 650's versus SRX, etc but a little pop up window said "are you sure? this subject hasn't been discussed in over 120 days". So I guess I will start anew

My current PA, aka "the money pit", is getting where it's allot invested for a the amount of sound work I do (not tons) I am STILL trying to get to where I am happy with the sound

the rig is:
8 Pcs of the EAW 650e (but in most cases I would never use more then 2 or 3 per side)
8 pcs of the JBL SRX728s 218 subs, and I most often use 2 per side for the typical 700 person show

...Making these 2 boxes 650e/728 work together in a way that I like has been a little challenging. I actually had a better all around sound when I was running my old EV dms2181 subs (more or less the old MT2 "sideway" over/under subs) and when I moved to the JBL 728 subwoofer, at first I was like "WOW, these things cranks!!!" but now it sounds to me like it's more this huge, puffy 'whomp' where it sure grabs your attention...and it's putting out....but there isn't much definition and it sounds more like a big boom box and we're not really hearing all the detail and 'warmth'. It also seems like the bass player might hit some notes to whwn it gets in the sub it's BOOM BOOM like too much but other notes on the neck not so much. Yes, I am sure the sound guys are using compressors

My FOH rack is

UX8800 processor, set to run the tops bi amp (gray box EAW), and then the subs off an aux  at a simple 80hz crossover point (using the inputs on the UX8800 as 1&2 IN for the tops bi-amp L/R, and 3rd input as sub in

I use a qsc plx 3602 for EACH side of the 650's.....low on one side of the amp, mid/high on the other
So 2 qsc plx 3602's, one for each side L/R for the tops

Then I have been using the QSC rmx5050 for the subs, I have 2 of them. I normally can run 2 subs off each side of a power amp, as it doesn't seem to mind 2 ohms per side
 
OK, with the 'history" you see above, here are some questions:

1) I have yet to try the EAW tops tri amp. I do in fact have laying around a RMX4050hd I could use if I wanted to move to a 3 way application. Or, I could buy another plx3602 to try to triamp...I have gone this far.....but already having an extra 4050hd it would be nice if I could use on the 15's of the 650's IF tri amp somehow would help 'clean up' the sound of the rig. My old PA tops were just bi-amp EV xi-1122, and truthfully, I think those sounded better then these 630's but I couldn't get the vocal to throw far enough outdoors to cover 1000 people so i sold them to get the 650's. While nothing is blown on the 650's, I always wish I could compare them side by side with someone that has the same boxes   

2) I have a unused dbx480 if it offered anything. I was planning to put it in a rack and create a 4 mix monitor rack with 6 pcs of the 712m I got not long ago, but the FOH is first priority to me. I have tons of the older QSC HPR series around (which I actually like allot) so ...480 if it can help

3) Another thought...a guy in town is selling 6 pcs of the JBL 725 (double 15 box). I sometimes wonder if I am downgrading if I went I sold all 8 of my 650e and got them. While my guy says it will be a slight downgrade, I wonder if it would be more 'plug and play' and easier and faster to tweak out a good sound. So I wonder, in case someone out there has both....would the 725 be a step down from the 650i?

...my next check is to check polarity (phase) on the rig. But on the cheapo tester set up (Galaxy Audio Cricket) it says some PA boxes are made to be wired out of phase between components on purpose, and one unnamed 'famous maker' does it often on their PA boxes

One final note: several of the national B or C acts have brought their own touring sound engineers. Many have their own mics, but ours was good anyways. So if the first reaction is it's the sound guys fault, I have had some fairly well known sound guys mix on the rig. They seemed OK with it, but I hear it's still not quite right. Truthfully a 3 way qsc hpr153i on the hpr118i has close, if not better, sound quality.
Have you checked the Grey box settings? quite a few years ago I had a kf60e rig running thru a ux8800..The way it was set up was that the 15" was crossed over pretty low.. I do not remember the  actual numbers, I think that those settings were made to run without a sub...all I can tell you is that when I changed the x-over point everything sounded alot better.
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ThomasKielhofner

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Have you checked the Grey box settings? quite a few years ago I had a kf60e rig running thru a ux8800..The way it was set up was that the 15" was crossed over pretty low.. I do not remember the  actual numbers, I think that those settings were made to run without a sub...all I can tell you is that when I changed the x-over point everything sounded alot better.

+1

The default high pass on the KF650e greybox is 45 Hz, have you changed this already? If not I would try raising it to 80 Hz as a start, and then listen/measure to figure out the best numbers for your low and high pass filters between the two bands.

Are you near your amps during the show? If you're running two or three 650s over two 728s per side (and all four 728s are on one RMX5050) you may be running the sub amps into clipping. Especially if the sub's levels are set to where they sound balanced with the tops.

I wouldn't consider 725s to be at the same level as KF650s either (even the e version). They're a three way box, with a horn loaded mid, and the ability to use more than two in an array without massive amounts of lobing. And that's coming from a guy who owns (and likes) 725s.
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Chuck Fudge

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We have a KF695z over (2) SBx220 subs as a roll in and go PA.  Just this week I updated the UX8800 firmware and greybox library, and started from scratch as the 695 tri amp settings had a revision.  When checking polarity between the 695z and the subs, I found reversing the polarity on the subs pulled the system together.  I don't know why...but if it looks right on smaart, double checking with the 80hz tone trick, and listening........then it must be right. 

Who knows what is going on within the grey box settings.  polarity inversions, delays, EQ etc....are left to the EAW.  Control of total system eq, delay, and high pass/low pass are accomplished on the input side by the user.

I agree with statements above...you must set the high pass filter on the input side of the ux8800 above or at the crossover point of the subs.  If the subs are aux driven those points can be adjusted to compensate for the change in crossover point when pushing subs above the level of the top cabinets.  Tri amp the system.  The E version is older.  The passive xover components may not be in the best shape....you will may have consistency between all the cabinets with tri amping the system.

The ux8800 is a nice tool to have.  Make sure you enter the values  for amp gain, resistance and amplifier output.  this will set output levels and limiting.  you might want to make a few different presets for all your configurations.   The ohm load/amp output effects limit settings.  set up presets for each situation where resistance changes.  check the specs of the cabinets and figure out ohm settings and amplifier outputs for each scenario.

It sounds to me you have a polarity or timing issue.  floppy with no punch would indicate this.   In our configuration above, not only did I have to reverse polarity on the subs, I also had to add some delay to the subs.  Personally I'm a novice with smaart and sub alignment, so I use the 80 hertz tone trick to determine polarity.   Timing I do by ear, listening for punch, kick low and high presence, and depth.  again....I'm a novice, but whatever I did worked.

If you don't run aux fed subs....split the sub outputs using the input c and d.  You are still summing the subs with the main system, but you get the additional control on the input side....eq, delay....  Assign c and d to be fed from a and b, using c and d to feed your sub amps.  This will allow you to delay your tops separate from subs, or vice versa and the input side of the processor.

Chuck 
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Lev Raber

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First, I never used my KF650s bi-amp, tri-amp only. I figured a long time ago this was the only way to have them sound right.
Second, you have to proper power your tops and subs. My set up was UX8800 tri-amp with MA3600 low/ MA2400 mid/ MA1200 hi for 4 tops (2 per side) configuration with MA5000 or QSC PL6.0 for 2 dual 18" subs (1 per side). I usually used another rack of amps for 4 extra tops and 2 subs if necessary. Go figure.
I used different subs from my inventory for different jobs (EAW SB1000e, Yorkville SW1000, EV QRx218) with subwoofer processor settings recommended by EAW (I believe it was 20Hz HPF with 24dB Butterworth, 80Hz LPF with 24dB Butterworth, also some 35Hz PEQ)
With UX8800 setiings for KF650 tri-amp this set up sounds AMAZING!!!
Now, I believe you can't change crossover points inside EAW Gray Boxes and I never tried.
JBL 728 is very power hungry sub. I was never a huge fan, but if I did, to make it sound right I'd used at least 1 QSC PL9.0 (or similar) for the pair of subs.
From what I see in your inventory you don't even come close.
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Bob Leonard

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Andrew,
sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. Below are the JBL recommended settings for the 728 (and 718). The difference in gain between those and your top box will of course be determined by the box you use. Do 728s like power? Yes, but 1x - 1.5x the long term rating per cabinet will yield excellent results without clipping.
 
 
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 06:25:51 pm by Bob Leonard »
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BOSTON STRONG........
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EvanKirkendall

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Triamp the 650's, get more power and high pass them at 110hz on the input side of your UX8800. You'll have a brand new box at this point with output for days. Those 650's will crush a 725. I am a fan of the JBL boxes, but they are not in the same league and do not array as well.

The floppy sound of your 728's sounds like a combination of the wrong HPF and poor time alignment between the subs and lows. Try a 30hz 3rd order high pass, and a 70hz, 4th order low pass on the subs. Then slowly add delay to the 650's until the low end comes together. Id say 4-6mS should do it. Oh, and get more power on the subs. They LOVE big amps and will come alive when you get an amp that can swing the voltage.



Evan
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drew gandy

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... and high pass them at 110hz on... 
...and a 70hz, 4th order low pass on the subs...

I'm certainly not proposing that the electrical crossover point is all that matters but does that kind of gap work well with these boxes?  It seems a little wide. 


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