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Author Topic: They keep making the same errors  (Read 7416 times)

Joseph D. Macry

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They keep making the same errors
« on: February 18, 2013, 11:54:21 am »

Despite several emails and meetings over the past few years, we keep getting specs from one particular architect that keep repeating the same mistakes.
One of the funnier ones: They specify "OptiPlex SP820A" as the gymnasium speaker. I know full well that they mean "OctaSound" by KDM. "OptiPlex" is a model of Dell computer. I have one at my desk. Tempted to mount it high above center court.
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Joseph Macry,
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: They keep making the same errors
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2013, 01:11:34 pm »

Despite several emails and meetings over the past few years, we keep getting specs from one particular architect that keep repeating the same mistakes.
One of the funnier ones: They specify "OptiPlex SP820A" as the gymnasium speaker. I know full well that they mean "OctaSound" by KDM. "OptiPlex" is a model of Dell computer. I have one at my desk. Tempted to mount it high above center court.
And getting the name wrong is only THE FIRST mistake----------------------------------------------
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Rob Spence

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They keep making the same errors
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2013, 04:00:04 pm »

Yow!
I would not feel good about folks miss details like that, more than once.
What else isn't right, or won't be?



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rob at lynxaudioservices dot com

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Tim Perry

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Re: They keep making the same errors
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2013, 04:14:22 pm »

I don't see Basketball deflection guard on the Octiplex accessory group.
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Brad Weber

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Re: They keep making the same errors
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2013, 04:19:19 pm »

Despite several emails and meetings over the past few years, we keep getting specs from one particular architect that keep repeating the same mistakes.
One of the funnier ones: They specify "OptiPlex SP820A" as the gymnasium speaker. I know full well that they mean "OctaSound" by KDM. "OptiPlex" is a model of Dell computer. I have one at my desk. Tempted to mount it high above center court.
Well, you know what they mean and they apparently aren't going to change so maybe that works in your favor.  When I was on the contracting side we had several owners and consultants that we worked with regularly and over the first few projects we got to know their way of doing things and could account for that, giving us an advantage.

For example, there was one consultant where we would almost automatically assume all the custom plates needed to be larger since their CAD tech seemed to think that if you could fit the connectors on the front view of the plate then it worked even if you did not account for the size of the connector on the rear of the plate, the open area of the box or any clearances for actually inserting and removing the connectors.  But we also knew that they would have no problem with our doing that so we didn't have to worry about it potentially being an issue later on.

Another possibility is that the school district or someone like that identified that specific product complete with errors and the Architect is reluctant to change it.  I've been involved in being asked to turn someone else's design or equipment list into a 'biddable' document package and you have to be careful of correcting assumed or real mistakes as you may then assume liability.  If someone asks for a Model XYY and I know they mean XYZ and correct it myself then if the Model XYZ does not work as expected it may be my problem.

Of course most likely is that the systems are apparently getting bid and built so they don't see it as an issue worth addressing.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: They keep making the same errors
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2013, 04:35:21 pm »

Well, you know what they mean and they apparently aren't going to change so maybe that works in your favor.  When I was on the contracting side we had several owners and consultants that we worked with regularly and over the first few projects we got to know their way of doing things and could account for that, giving us an advantage.

For example, there was one consultant where we would almost automatically assume all the custom plates needed to be larger since their CAD tech seemed to think that if you could fit the connectors on the front view of the plate then it worked even if you did not account for the size of the connector on the rear of the plate, the open area of the box or any clearances for actually inserting and removing the connectors.  But we also knew that they would have no problem with our doing that so we didn't have to worry about it potentially being an issue later on.

Another possibility is that the school district or someone like that identified that specific product complete with errors and the Architect is reluctant to change it.  I've been involved in being asked to turn someone else's design or equipment list into a 'biddable' document package and you have to be careful of correcting assumed or real mistakes as you may then assume liability.  If someone asks for a Model XYY and I know they mean XYZ and correct it myself then if the Model XYZ does not work as expected it may be my problem.

Of course most likely is that the systems are apparently getting bid and built so they don't see it as an issue worth addressing.

Chimbley.
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Joseph D. Macry

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Re: They keep making the same errors
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2013, 02:50:48 pm »

Yow!
I would not feel good about folks miss details like that, more than once.
What else isn't right, or won't be?



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The specified DSP package:
1 dbx-231 graphic EQ, plus Symetrix SymNet Express 8x8.

Specified annoucer's microphone: "cardioid dynamic microphone with integrated on/off switch shall be Bogen model HDO100." I'll let you look that one up.
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Joseph Macry,
Austin, TX

Joseph D. Macry

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Re: They keep making the same errors
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2013, 02:54:22 pm »

Well, you know what they mean and they apparently aren't going to change so maybe that works in your favor.  When I was on the contracting side we had several owners and consultants that we worked with regularly and over the first few projects we got to know their way of doing things and could account for that, giving us an advantage.

For example, there was one consultant where we would almost automatically assume all the custom plates needed to be larger since their CAD tech seemed to think that if you could fit the connectors on the front view of the plate then it worked even if you did not account for the size of the connector on the rear of the plate, the open area of the box or any clearances for actually inserting and removing the connectors.  But we also knew that they would have no problem with our doing that so we didn't have to worry about it potentially being an issue later on.

Another possibility is that the school district or someone like that identified that specific product complete with errors and the Architect is reluctant to change it.  I've been involved in being asked to turn someone else's design or equipment list into a 'biddable' document package and you have to be careful of correcting assumed or real mistakes as you may then assume liability.  If someone asks for a Model XYY and I know they mean XYZ and correct it myself then if the Model XYZ does not work as expected it may be my problem.

Of course most likely is that the systems are apparently getting bid and built so they don't see it as an issue worth addressing.

How this came about: Architect asked our competitor to write a set of specs for a school gym, then they keep copying and pasting the error-ridden result into successive projects. Specs were written by owner, not qualified tech. This guy has heard of various pieces of gear, but does not know what they do nor how. He once specified SM-58s as hanging choir mics.
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Joseph Macry,
Austin, TX

Brad Weber

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Re: They keep making the same errors
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2013, 03:38:09 pm »

How this came about: Architect asked our competitor to write a set of specs for a school gym, then they keep copying and pasting the error-ridden result into successive projects. Specs were written by owner, not qualified tech. This guy has heard of various pieces of gear, but does not know what they do nor how. He once specified SM-58s as hanging choir mics.
Much more common than some might expect and not always unintentional.  One company around here had a reputation for years if not decades for offering free 'design services' to Owners and Electrical Engineers through which they would generate documents that were so incomplete and filled with so many errors and vague references that it discouraged anyone else from bidding.  And if they did have to compete then that allowed them to interpret the documents however it benefited them.  As long as Owners and Engineers accepted that they continued to work that way.

Supporting that is that many school districts seem more intent on doing the same thing every time than on doing the best thing every time. One school district handed us the Architect's plans and an equipment list, wanting us to adapt the same equipment list to whatever the Architect developed for each different school regardless of how much the schools or spaces actually varied.  Or the school district that asked us not do too good a job since while they wanted to try to address problems they encountered in some of the older schools, they didn't want the new school facilities to be too noticeably improved.  I had one school district that they asked us to see how much better we could do with the same budget and then literally came back and asked us to step back on what we developed since the improvements would be too obvious.  Then there was the Electrical Contractor that convinced the School District owner to direct us to revise our designed system for a thrust stage theatre to use a single Octasound speaker and a mixer/amp in a closet since that was what they always used in the gymnasiums and thus should work for the physically smaller theatre space (we declined and terminated the relationship).
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BenGibbs

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Re: They keep making the same errors
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2013, 08:03:02 pm »

I don't have much experience with architects and consultants, but I recently had a consultant on a current project continue to state that the 100v speakers they had installed would have a 6 ohm load at the wall socket, and we could go to any hifi shop and get an amp that would work. They had also specified that the wall plates should be RCA sockets, but luckily the av integrators just went ahead and put in speakon sockets anyway.
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Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC

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Re: They keep making the same errors
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2013, 11:30:24 pm »

Well, if you are talking about those eight 15w/100v speakers in your other post they were close. Total would be 8.33 ohms.
 
Could you use one channel of a 400w per channel consumer amp? You could try. Many won't play nice with inductive loads though and most power ratings are fantasy. 
 
-Hal
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 11:33:18 pm by Hal Bissinger/COMSYSTEC »
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BenGibbs

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Re: They keep making the same errors
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2013, 07:53:11 pm »

Well, if you are talking about those eight 15w/100v speakers in your other post they were close. Total would be 8.33 ohms.
 
Could you use one channel of a 400w per channel consumer amp? You could try. Many won't play nice with inductive loads though and most power ratings are fantasy. 
 
-Hal


Lucky I didn't say anything. I was under the impression the total impedance would be in the order of 50 ohms +.
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Mike Caldwell

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Re: They keep making the same errors
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2013, 08:39:36 pm »

I could make a huge list but I'll keep it short.

One of my favorites is the spec for a cassette tape recorder as only recording format in school music rooms and auditoriums. I will say that one has started shifting to CD recorders but only in the last couple years but the cassette still shows up from time to time. You gotta love copy and paste engineering from 20 year old specs putting our tax dollars to good work.

Another is the spec for all the audio equipment in the rack to have the chassis bonded to a common ground buss bar isolated from the rack and the buss bar tied to the common ground point in the telcom server room. Yea rack was wired to "spec" and it hummed like no tomorrow till the buss bar grounding was removed. Maybe in a AM transmitter site something like would have to be worked out and implemented.

« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 11:20:52 pm by Mike Caldwell »
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duane massey

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Re: They keep making the same errors
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2013, 11:06:10 pm »

I'm very glad to be removed from dealing with consultants and designers. One of the worst ones I can recall involved a consultant who loved Lyntech power control systems, showed up on every job.
He spec'd a complete breaker panel, but with only ONE breaker in it. The system consisted of ONE TOA powered mixer and 12 70v speakers tapped at 5w each. The client never even questioned the expense.
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Duane Massey
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Ron Hebbard

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Re: They keep making the same errors
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2013, 12:56:02 am »

I'm very glad to be removed from dealing with consultants and designers. One of the worst ones I can recall involved a consultant who loved Lyntech power control systems, showed up on every job.
He spec'd a complete breaker panel, but with only ONE breaker in it. The system consisted of ONE TOA powered mixer and 12 70v speakers tapped at 5w each. The client never even questioned the expense.

Tell me the only breaker was the one powering the sequencer and you'll have me convulsing!

Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
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Jason Lavoie

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Re: They keep making the same errors
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2013, 10:40:29 am »

Well, if you are talking about those eight 15w/100v speakers in your other post they were close. Total would be 8.33 ohms.
 
Could you use one channel of a 400w per channel consumer amp? You could try. Many won't play nice with inductive loads though and most power ratings are fantasy. 
 
-Hal

I think you missed a zero there.. and went 70V instead of 100V
150W@70V gives 8.33 ohms.
15W@100V gives 166 ohms

Jason
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Brad Weber

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Re: They keep making the same errors
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2013, 12:30:39 pm »

I'm very glad to be removed from dealing with consultants and designers.
The problem is not consultants and designers.  The problem is processes and situations that support or even favor unqualified Consultants and Designers.  This often manifests itself in public bids and large corporate bids with a "low qualified bid" approach as the 'qualified' aspect often relates more to business rather than technical qualifications.

Adding to that, while groups like the Construction Specifications Institute have tried to reinforce that communications systems are a separate work product, many Owners, Purchasing Agents, General Contractors, Construction managers and so on still include AVL work under the Electrical Engineer and Electrical Contractor.  When those parties are having to bid competitively to get their work then that almost forces them to cut corners where they can including things like using 'free' design services, regurgitating old documents, etc. because if they don't do that then the project may go to the competitor that did.

A similar situation exists with internal resources being asked to bid systems, they will often take the path of lowest cost/least effort, especially if they are not the ones who have to live with the results.

This topic always reminds me of the State bid where the actual End User had been burned before and worked with me to make sure we qualified the bidders.  At the public bid opening the Apparent Low Bid was significantly deficient on some of the qualifications and their bid was about to be rejected when the State Purchasing Agent, who knew nothing about audio or the actual work involved in general, stood up and said they could accept any discrepancies they wanted and would accept the low bid.  Basically, that person didn't seem to care about anything other than being able to go back to their superiors to tell them how much money they supposedly saved  (and regardless of whether it actually represented getting a lesser value).  It took the End Users actively fighting it and getting Attorneys and higher ups at the State involved to finally get a determination that the qualifications were reasonable and that bid was non-responsive.  When the process supports or even promotes cutting corners and incompetence, its a challenge to try to change that.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: They keep making the same errors
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2013, 01:03:01 pm »

I think you missed a zero there.. and went 70V instead of 100V
150W@70V gives 8.33 ohms.
15W@100V gives 166 ohms

Jason
Actually a 70.7V line at 8 ohms is 624 watts-not 150.

We are not talking peak power here-but rather continuous.
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Alan Clayton

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Re: They keep making the same errors
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2013, 10:16:22 am »

Much more common than some might expect and not always unintentional.  One company around here had a reputation for years if not decades for offering free 'design services' to Owners and Electrical Engineers through which they would generate documents that were so incomplete and filled with so many errors and vague references that it discouraged anyone else from bidding.  And if they did have to compete then that allowed them to interpret the documents however it benefited them.  As long as Owners and Engineers accepted that they continued to work that way.

I have a local competitor that does that, except it's just with the engineers. Owners tend to hate them. 

For instance you will see things like Provide Sennheiser SM58 microphones or QSC CT series amplifiers.....

If they get the job, the engineers rubber stamp it. If I get the job, the engineer takes my submittable to my competitor who goes over it with a find toothed comb and nit picks any little discrepancy, or points to the clause that says "you have to make it work!"

Just found another one "Acceptable Speaker shall be Atlas Soundtube RS800i -series"
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 05:02:27 pm by Alan Clayton »
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: They keep making the same errors
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2013, 10:16:22 am »


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