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Author Topic: Unusual "how loud" question -- realistic gunfire  (Read 12188 times)

Mark McFarlane

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Re: Unusual "how loud" question -- realistic gunfire
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2013, 01:52:17 am »

....
There are a lot of hunters, police, military,  crooks, plinkers, and their offspring using guns.
...

..but would these guys actually be going to live theatre  ;)

My son sat atop a Marine Humvee in Iraq with a machine gun and TOW missile launcher, and he called in the fast movers with 500 pounders from half a block away. It's little wonder at 28 that he doesn't hear very well.  There were 8 guys in his battalion (2/1) with the same MOS (basically sniper bait), and apparently only 3 survived the tour, so we were damn happy that he came home even if he can't hear very well.  Getting even further off track, the scariest story he's told me so far (a few new ones every year) was firing a tow missile that misfired and dropped to the ground 10 feet in front of the Humvee.  They were taking a column into a village and he had to jump out, pick up the armed missile and gently place it in a ditch while taking automatic fire.  No one in his truck thought they'd make it through that event, but miraculously they all made it home.

You could hand out ear plugs for the audience...
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Mark McFarlane
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Turn down what's too loud.

Steve Kas

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Re: Unusual "how loud" question -- realistic gunfire
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2013, 04:44:24 am »

LOL! Welcome to 2013! The SPL at many events is shamefully too low nowadays. Political correctness and an over litigous society has even got to the audio/arts industry! Wow!! Where would you set the upper limit? What? I say, Hit 'em with a "BOOM"  from that gun sound efx track- as much output your rig has! The sound effect will have more impact , if right before the "BOOM" - the stage was calm and almost silent. Imagine.....  troops lurking around, fearing the possibility of death, suttle birds chirping, nobody talking,,,,,,,,,, then..... "BOOM!!!!"  You need tons of low freq.  Aux (buss) that gun track to your subs and get the max output they have. Don't worry too much about your hi/mid  freq. feed (let your ears decide) Don't worry about the "proper audio reproduction of the specific weapon"! It doesn't matter in live audio! Just don't make a rifle sound like a canon and you'll be ok. You aren't doing a movie or CD here. If it makes 1 audience member "piss themselves" or "jump out of their seat"- job well done, contrary to a couple respected posters on this thread (sorry guys)!. I guarantee you don't have enough audio in your theatre to penetrate a tympanic membrane on a short burst "BOOM". But, the audience will get an experience that will be worth the $20 ticket they purchased instead of the same ol' home theatre, white glove BS they are used to. What ever happened to, "If it's too loud, you're too old."? Artificial "High frequency tinnitus"- really? "Create a silence" in the room?  What?? You hit them with a loud "BOOM!" - they will jump, laugh, cry, etc...but most importantly, feel something! That's what they paid for. That's what some "live audio" guys don't get! Next, LD's are going start worrying about their fixtures being too bright! What happens when high W crowd blinders go on (or should I say "went on"? lmao)? Did the crowd go silent and cry/worry about their possible retinal damage? NO!!! They screamed! You know why? Because they felt something! Great art will offend some, but please many.

Unfortunately, some of you cater to the complainers. But, the majority of non-complainers will never say, "The show was OK because I didn't feel the audio." They don't know! They just know it didn't move them. It's our job as live sound professionals to know what they want! Albeit, most won't say, "I loved the show because the audio was in my face and I became part of it."  But, they will say, " The show was great!".  Theatre audio productions can be great because they have multitudes of audio dynamic potential. Keep the dialouge vox low, but extremely intelligible, so people have to really pay attention. Keep your sound efx subtle, but heard (4-6K boost and 800-2K cut for environmental efx, etc..). But, 1-2 x (for a short period of time) throughout the performance, HIT THEM with everything your PA has. That's why it's there. Most old, young, rockers, and wheel chair rollers will love it! 

For the nay-sayers, stay in your recording studio with NS-10's and pristine audio at "acceptable levels". The rest of us will keep "wowing" audiences and working live shows 2-300 dates/year. If you got the gear- USE IT! If you don't, buy more. If use my quotes, please cite me ... lol You have to admit- they are better than "Keep practicing." Where did that come from? I think it is a "Say Bahhh!" thing. Who knows? IMHO Respectfully. I am Blessed to be part of this forum consisting of many seasoned audio pros. Thanks for reading my post.
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Tim Halligan

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Re: Unusual "how loud" question -- realistic gunfire
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2013, 11:12:46 am »

LOL! Welcome to 2013! The SPL at many events is shamefully too low nowadays. Political correctness and an over litigous society has even got to the audio/arts industry! Wow!! Where would you set the upper limit? What? I say, Hit 'em with a "BOOM"  from that gun sound efx track- as much output your rig has! The sound effect will have more impact , if right before the "BOOM" - the stage was calm and almost silent. Imagine.....  troops lurking around, fearing the possibility of death, suttle birds chirping, nobody talking,,,,,,,,,, then..... "BOOM!!!!"  You need tons of low freq.  Aux (buss) that gun track to your subs and get the max output they have. Don't worry too much about your hi/mid  freq. feed (let your ears decide) Don't worry about the "proper audio reproduction of the specific weapon"! It doesn't matter in live audio! Just don't make a rifle sound like a canon and you'll be ok. You aren't doing a movie or CD here. If it makes 1 audience member "piss themselves" or "jump out of their seat"- job well done, contrary to a couple respected posters on this thread (sorry guys)!. I guarantee you don't have enough audio in your theatre to penetrate a tympanic membrane on a short burst "BOOM". But, the audience will get an experience that will be worth the $20 ticket they purchased instead of the same ol' home theatre, white glove BS they are used to. What ever happened to, "If it's too loud, you're too old."? Artificial "High frequency tinnitus"- really? "Create a silence" in the room?  What?? You hit them with a loud "BOOM!" - they will jump, laugh, cry, etc...but most importantly, feel something! That's what they paid for. That's what some "live audio" guys don't get! Next, LD's are going start worrying about their fixtures being too bright! What happens when high W crowd blinders go on (or should I say "went on"? lmao)? Did the crowd go silent and cry/worry about their possible retinal damage? NO!!! They screamed! You know why? Because they felt something! Great art will offend some, but please many.

Unfortunately, some of you cater to the complainers. But, the majority of non-complainers will never say, "The show was OK because I didn't feel the audio." They don't know! They just know it didn't move them. It's our job as live sound professionals to know what they want! Albeit, most won't say, "I loved the show because the audio was in my face and I became part of it."  But, they will say, " The show was great!".  Theatre audio productions can be great because they have multitudes of audio dynamic potential. Keep the dialouge vox low, but extremely intelligible, so people have to really pay attention. Keep your sound efx subtle, but heard (4-6K boost and 800-2K cut for environmental efx, etc..). But, 1-2 x (for a short period of time) throughout the performance, HIT THEM with everything your PA has. That's why it's there. Most old, young, rockers, and wheel chair rollers will love it! 

For the nay-sayers, stay in your recording studio with NS-10's and pristine audio at "acceptable levels". The rest of us will keep "wowing" audiences and working live shows 2-300 dates/year. If you got the gear- USE IT! If you don't, buy more. If use my quotes, please cite me ... lol You have to admit- they are better than "Keep practicing." Where did that come from? I think it is a "Say Bahhh!" thing. Who knows? IMHO Respectfully. I am Blessed to be part of this forum consisting of many seasoned audio pros. Thanks for reading my post.

Rolling on floor laughing...



Sides might actually split...



Tears rolling down face...



Having trouble breathing....














Thanks for the laughs.

Cheers,
Tim




















Oh wait...it's just occurred to me that you may have actually been serious.
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Ed Walters

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Re: Unusual "how loud" question -- realistic gunfire
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2013, 12:50:41 pm »

..but would these guys actually be going to live theatre  ;)

I would certainly wish they would.

Thanks to your son and all other Vets for their service!

I've built some sfx cues but its been a challenge due to the heavy limiting/compression to get what we need. The single shot/tts/ringing thing works. The oncoming/closing firing remains a challenge. The show includes the start of the Tet offensive from the perspective of being in a base that's over-run. Distant AK and M16 fire is easy, close in is the challenge. I'm working with 'Nam vets and the local VVA, I am going to assume they know what this shit sounded like... While I don't really want them to mess their drawers, I do hope we can make it feel realistic without damaging anyone's hearing.

This topic certainly got more discourse than I expected. I thank you all for your participation.

Ed Walters

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Joseph D. Macry

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Re: Unusual "how loud" question -- realistic gunfire
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2013, 02:53:07 pm »

During local July 4th fireworks show, the city orchestra plays 1812 Overture outdoors in the park. At the appropriate point, a battery of actual 105mm howitzers (supplied by local National Guard unit) shoots blank rounds from the side of the field. Talk about realism! Makes people really jump.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Unusual "how loud" question -- realistic gunfire
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2013, 03:08:00 pm »

was firing a tow missile that misfired and dropped to the ground 10 feet in front of the Humvee.  They were taking a column into a village and he had to jump out, pick up the armed missile and gently place it in a ditch while taking automatic fire.  No one in his truck thought they'd make it through that event, but miraculously they all made it home.


Glad he is OK.. I am not familiar with TOW but many weapons have fail safe mechanisms built into projectiles so they don't fully arm until they travel some safe distance from where they were fired, to prevent killing good guys after misfires. 

That one may end up repurposed into an IED.  :(

Handing out ear plugs to the audience would reduce the surprise. 8)

JR
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Steve Kas

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Re: Unusual "how loud" question -- realistic gunfire
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2013, 11:15:07 pm »

Rolling on floor laughing...



Sides might actually split...



Tears rolling down face...



Having trouble breathing....














Thanks for the laughs.

Cheers,
Tim




















Oh wait...it's just occurred to me that you may have actually been serious.

What about my post amusing to you?
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: Unusual "how loud" question -- realistic gunfire
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2013, 03:10:27 am »

Glad he is OK.. I am not familiar with TOW but many weapons have fail safe mechanisms built into projectiles so they don't fully arm until they travel some safe distance from where they were fired, to prevent killing good guys after misfires. 

That one may end up repurposed into an IED.  :(

Handing out ear plugs to the audience would reduce the surprise. 8)

JR

The TOW is a wire-guided Vietnam era weapon.  My son thought some of their stock was in storage since 'nam (probably not true, but anyone familiar with the USMC know they have some really old gear, and the grunts like to complain about it).  They had different missiles for different usage. He had several failures, including one that went off wire, shot straight up and headed over towards a residential area near Camp Pendleton.  Everyone screamed 'oh shit' simultaneously. Luckily it dropped in range.  Designed as an anti-armoured vehicle weapon, they apparently do a thorough job on brick buildings too.  The bad thing about mounting them on a Humvee is you can't have any vertical armor around the turret or you'll bake the operator and the vehicle occupants when the missile fires.   The lack of armor is part of what makes the job crazy dangerous.  My crazy son loved it.
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Mark McFarlane
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Turn down what's too loud.

Kevin Maxwell

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Re: Unusual "how loud" question -- realistic gunfire
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2013, 01:58:42 pm »

The last show I did with gunshots was Oklahoma. There are 3 times that someone shoots. Unless you really know the show 2 of the times it is really kind of unexpected. People did jump out of their seats. The sub really helps to give it some body. The effect that I used is a mix of some different sounds including a cannon to get the low end. It did sound very real. Kind of like when someone shoots a 44mag. You have to be really careful with the blend of the different elements of the sound effect to get the perceived realism. And what works on one sound system may not work on another.

Speakers other then your main hang can also be very helpful. When the gunshots are coming from different places it can really help with the effect. It becomes a little bit trickier in your routing though.   
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Unusual "how loud" question -- realistic gunfire
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2013, 04:33:53 pm »

The TOW is a wire-guided Vietnam era weapon.  My son thought some of their stock was in storage since 'nam (probably not true, but anyone familiar with the USMC know they have some really old gear, and the grunts like to complain about it).  They had different missiles for different usage. He had several failures, including one that went off wire, shot straight up and headed over towards a residential area near Camp Pendleton.  Everyone screamed 'oh shit' simultaneously. Luckily it dropped in range.  Designed as an anti-armoured vehicle weapon, they apparently do a thorough job on brick buildings too.  The bad thing about mounting them on a Humvee is you can't have any vertical armor around the turret or you'll bake the operator and the vehicle occupants when the missile fires.   The lack of armor is part of what makes the job crazy dangerous.  My crazy son loved it.
They may have been in inventory since Vietnam, based on being in Vietnam and having used weapons and ammo from Korea and WWII. Shotguns, 45ACP, mines, 105 rounds, K-bar, helmet, web gear, etc. Never bothered me at all, and I actually used to tell myself if it made it through those wars I'll make it through mine.
 
Ask your son if they still use fleshettes (bee hive rounds) with the 105s, and thank him for joining the club.
 
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Re: Unusual "how loud" question -- realistic gunfire
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2013, 04:33:53 pm »


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