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[Tommy Peel]

Just what do they need to hear that they aren't hearing now?  Hear each other doing what?

I'd have to talk to them, which I'll do Monday at practice, to know for sure, but I think lead and bg singers(usually just the lead and one bg but sometimes we have up to 3 bg singers) probably have trouble hearing themselves/each other's voices. I know that I have to ride their faders quite a bit although that may have more to do with bad mic technique than the monitors. I'd like to hope that if they can hear a better mix of the vocals that they would be able to work their mics better. I also know that the amps we use for monitors aren't the clearest in the world either. Generally the complaint is that we "need better monitors" so I'm going to have to talk to them to know for sure.


Tommy

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

I have to ride their faders quite a bit although that may have more to do with bad mic technique than the monitors. I'd like to hope that if they can hear a better mix of the vocals that they would be able to work their mics better.

That's exactly backwards.  They need to stay on their mics properly in order for anything to work.  Until they learn to perform in an effective manner, there's nothing else to do.  End of story.

I also know that the amps we use for monitors aren't the clearest in the world either. Generally the complaint is that we "need better monitors" so I'm going to have to talk to them to know for sure.

Tommy

If you're using amps for monitors instead of real wedges, that' another FAIL.

Again, I suggest a couple of side-wash monitors.  You can get away with a L/R mix of vocals and cover the performing area with 2 speakers.  If you use floor wedges, chances are you'll end up with more than 2. 

Get them on the mics.   Lose the amps.  Forget fancy solutions.  Do the basics correctly.

[Tommy Peel]

That's exactly backwards.  They need to stay on their mics properly in order for anything to work.  Until they learn to perform in an effective manner, there's nothing else to do.  End of story.

If you're using amps for monitors instead of real wedges, that' another FAIL.

Again, I suggest a couple of side-wash monitors.  You can get away with a L/R mix of vocals and cover the performing area with 2 speakers.  If you use floor wedges, chances are you'll end up with more than 2. 

Get them on the mics.   Lose the amps.  Forget fancy solutions.  Do the basics correctly.

I've been working on getting them to stay on their mics, and will keep doing so. The side wash wedges sound like a good solution, should I feed both off one aux or put separate mixes on each one? Also with the way the stage is setup the drummer won't be covered in the side washes well enough. The main point of this is to get us off of our amp "monitors" and onto something better; they have been better than what we did before(no monitors) though. I've attached a couple of pics of our setup, they aren't great but they show what our stage looks like. The first one is from last week and is a non-typical setup because we were short our main drummer so we did it acoustic. The second one is a more normal setup. Where would you put the side washes?

Edit: Dick, why don't you think IEMs are the best idea?

[Luke Geis]

You could do something that is a little more far fetched. Put the PA behind you! Then it will be your monitor. If you can't hear what you need that way then your really in trouble. The other upside is that you will have a pretty good idea about how you really sound as if you were in front of the PA. The downside is that you will be limited as to how much volume you can have before the mics start to feed back. I have done this a few times and it works well. It really forces you to keep your levels realistic and if you can't sound good this way, then you really know what your up against. If desired you can run one speaker instead of two and use the other as a monitor. If the bulk of the sound out of the PA is vocals then having a single speaker in the air behind the drummer will be a pretty good way to run ( no comb filtering ). It seems silly, but I found it to be quite effective as a solution to band training. If it can't work this way, then it may never work.

[Samuel Rees]

I wouldn't recommend doing that. You can find a solution that doesn't involve placing your FOH speakers behind your vocal mics!

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

The second one is a more normal setup. Where would you put the side washes?

On the sides, pointed in.  Final placement to be wherever the coverage is best.

Edit: Dick, why don't you think IEMs are the best idea?

I was addressing your budget.....or the lack thereof.  IEM's might be a fine idea.  But cheap ones are not.  You'll want custom molds or very high quality buds to have them work well.  I'd guess that good IEM rigs are close to $1000/person.  Then you'll need a desk with enough auxes to handle the mixes, preferably stereo.  Then you'll need to learn how to mix them.

But first of all. your people will have to learn proper mic technique and stay on their mics.
If you do that (which doesn't cost anything), you'll likely be able to get a large improvement by just adding a couple of 10 or 12 inch powered monitors for side-wash and a small wedge for the drummer.

You can run side-washes on one aux. L/R is better.  You'll want a separate aux for the drum wedge.

Concentrate on working together before investing a couple of grand on IEM's and a new desk.

   

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

You could do something that is a little more far fetched. Put the PA behind you!

I think anyone who has been running sound for a few years has had to do this at one time or another.  It had crossed my mind to mention it, but I left it for you.

Samuel.....

It's totally workable......IF you have the experience and the gear to do it.  The OP apparently lacks the precise EQ'ing I'd want.  But the whole argument for any particular setup still boils down to MIC TECHNIQUE.  If they won't stay on the mics and be the "loudest sound at the mic", they've crippled themselves beyond the help of most any soundie. 

[Samuel Rees]

Wow, I never would have thought that could be anything but bad. Interesting to know under the right conditions it could work out, thanks.

[Tommy Peel]

On the sides, pointed in.  Final placement to be wherever the coverage is best.

I was addressing your budget.....or the lack thereof.  IEM's might be a fine idea.  But cheap ones are not.  You'll want custom molds or very high quality buds to have them work well.  I'd guess that good IEM rigs are close to $1000/person.  Then you'll need a desk with enough auxes to handle the mixes, preferably stereo.  Then you'll need to learn how to mix them.

But first of all. your people will have to learn proper mic technique and stay on their mics.
If you do that (which doesn't cost anything), you'll likely be able to get a large improvement by just adding a couple of 10 or 12 inch powered monitors for side-wash and a small wedge for the drummer.

You can run side-washes on one aux. L/R is better.  You'll want a separate aux for the drum wedge.

Concentrate on working together before investing a couple of grand on IEM's and a new desk.

 

Sounds good, we'll be looking into getting some powered speakers for side washes and a drum wedge in the near future. Will those Alto coaxial 12s I mentioned in the first post work for the side wash and drum wedge? Should I get some tripod stands to put the side washes on? In our normal room I may be able to set them on those walls by the organ(on the right) and the piano(on the left) but when we play elsewhere we may need something to put them on.

Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk 2

[Tommy Peel]

You could do something that is a little more far fetched. Put the PA behind you! Then it will be your monitor. If you can't hear what you need that way then your really in trouble. The other upside is that you will have a pretty good idea about how you really sound as if you were in front of the PA. The downside is that you will be limited as to how much volume you can have before the mics start to feed back. I have done this a few times and it works well. It really forces you to keep your levels realistic and if you can't sound good this way, then you really know what your up against. If desired you can run one speaker instead of two and use the other as a monitor. If the bulk of the sound out of the PA is vocals then having a single speaker in the air behind the drummer will be a pretty good way to run ( no comb filtering ). It seems silly, but I found it to be quite effective as a solution to band training. If it can't work this way, then it may never work.

The original setup before I started doing sound there had the speakers on the stage where the musicians could hear them directly. In that case the levels were left the same and they just used one of those suitcase PAs(which we still use as a power amp). We quickly decided that this didn't work very well and transitioned to the setup in the pictures.

Sent from my Milestone X using Tapatalk 2

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