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Author Topic: band vocalist using compressor before going to the board  (Read 21579 times)

Gene O'Callaghan

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band vocalist using compressor before going to the board
« on: February 03, 2013, 12:29:58 PM »

Hi Everyone,
I'm sure this got peoples attention, but I need some help trying to get vocals to cut through. So I'm providing the brian johnson vocals for an ac/dc tribute band... which as I perform uses a lot of 'head voice'. So it achieves the correct vocal effect- but it's not a loud screaming voice. (though some people do perform the vocals this way). As such, during rehearsals and recording I use compression so that in the event that I do go "loud" (sing from the diaphragm) I don't overload the input.

Now we started doing live shows. Different sound guys running the boards (different setups) each time. Though I can't obviously be on-stage and listen to front of house, I don't believe the vocals cut through enough.

My guess is that the engineer sets the gain on the channel so it doesn't max out when I'm 'loud', but because alot of the vocals aren't sung loud, and maybe he isn't riding the pot, the vocal strength is lower in the mix.

I'm thinking that a 5:1 soft-knee compression (or so) is what I need on vocals to present a consistent input. I know it might be crazy, but what if I ran my mic into my compressor and had it set the way I believe it performs well and then run the output to board... I know it's unconventional, but I don't know who is running the boards at alot of these venues and until I have sound people I trust- I'm thinking of taking this into my hands... I'm thinking a dbx or focusrite compressor.

I don't expect all the comments to be kind at this point- but I need some advise.

Thanks in advance,
gene
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Re: band vocalist using compressor before going to the board
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2013, 12:50:06 PM »

Hi Everyone,
I'm sure this got peoples attention, but I need some help trying to get vocals to cut through. So I'm providing the brian johnson vocals for an ac/dc tribute band... which as I perform uses a lot of 'head voice'. So it achieves the correct vocal effect- but it's not a loud screaming voice. (though some people do perform the vocals this way). As such, during rehearsals and recording I use compression so that in the event that I do go "loud" (sing from the diaphragm) I don't overload the input.

Now we started doing live shows. Different sound guys running the boards (different setups) each time. Though I can't obviously be on-stage and listen to front of house, I don't believe the vocals cut through enough.

My guess is that the engineer sets the gain on the channel so it doesn't max out when I'm 'loud', but because alot of the vocals aren't sung loud, and maybe he isn't riding the pot, the vocal strength is lower in the mix.

I'm thinking that a 5:1 soft-knee compression (or so) is what I need on vocals to present a consistent input. I know it might be crazy, but what if I ran my mic into my compressor and had it set the way I believe it performs well and then run the output to board... I know it's unconventional, but I don't know who is running the boards at alot of these venues and until I have sound people I trust- I'm thinking of taking this into my hands... I'm thinking a dbx or focusrite compressor.

I don't expect all the comments to be kind at this point- but I need some advise.

Thanks in advance,
gene

Before gear became the solution for every problem, singers learned how to "work the mic" to get the desired result.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: band vocalist using compressor before going to the board
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2013, 12:57:36 PM »

Before gear became the solution for every problem, singers learned how to "work the mic" to get the desired result.
And one of the best I have worked with was Sam Moore (from Sam and Dave fame).

He and his band were TRUE PROFESSIONALS when it came to mic technique-stage level etc.  The easiest band I have every worked with.  Just turn them up and let them go.  No "mixing" required. :)
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Gene O'Callaghan

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Re: band vocalist using compressor before going to the board
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2013, 01:00:37 PM »

Before gear became the solution for every problem, singers learned how to "work the mic" to get the desired result.

Yes, probably true. But we're a band full of 40 somethings that take this as a hobby. That being said, compressors aren't something new - and probably available at the board anyway. What I am proposing is to present a compressor processed signal to the engineer...
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Re: band vocalist using compressor before going to the board
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2013, 01:17:29 PM »

Yes, probably true. But we're a band full of 40 somethings that take this as a hobby. That being said, compressors aren't something new - and probably available at the board anyway. What I am proposing is to present a compressor processed signal to the engineer...

There are many reasons not to do what you want to do.  I ASSume you're using monitors on stage.  If you compress the signal before it hits the board out front, your voice will be compressed in the monitor as well as the mains.  This is just flat out undesirable no matter what your age, ability or level of experience.

Let the guy out front do his job.  Learn how to do yours without falling back on the "we're just a bunch of (whatever)" whine.  Listen to your voice in the monitor.  Let that tell you how to work the mic.  If there needs to be in compression in the mix after all that, it should be done from out front where the "ears" are.

Every situation is different.  Going in with a "one size fits all" compression setting is going to cause as many problems as it attempts to solve, probably more.

If you really want to get a machine to fix the "problem", pre-record your vocals and lip-synch to the tracks.  That way it'll always be the same and you won't have to learn anything.
   
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 01:42:42 PM by dick rees »
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: band vocalist using compressor before going to the board
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2013, 03:58:42 PM »

Before gear became the solution for every problem, singers learned how to "work the mic" to get the desired result.

To clarify, when you sing louder (chest voice), pull the mic away from your mouth so that your uncompressed voice in the monitors is the volume you desire. When you go to your head voice bring the mic in closer until the volume is what you desire.  It's fairly simple, you can probably figure it out after a few rehearsals. practice at home. 

No need for any fancy-shmancy electronics, you only need Mark's Elbow Compressor (C) 2013
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: band vocalist using compressor before going to the board
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2013, 04:04:59 PM »

No need for any fancy-shmancy electronics, you only need Mark's Elbow Compressor (C) 2013

As the Irish say, "More power to your elbow!!"
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Gene O'Callaghan

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Re: band vocalist using compressor before going to the board
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2013, 05:11:01 PM »

There are many reasons not to do what you want to do.  I ASSume you're using monitors on stage.  If you compress the signal before it hits the board out front, your voice will be compressed in the monitor as well as the mains.  This is just flat out undesirable no matter what your age, ability or level of experience.

Let the guy out front do his job.  Learn how to do yours without falling back on the "we're just a bunch of (whatever)" whine.  Listen to your voice in the monitor.  Let that tell you how to work the mic.  If there needs to be in compression in the mix after all that, it should be done from out front where the "ears" are.

Every situation is different.  Going in with a "one size fits all" compression setting is going to cause as many problems as it attempts to solve, probably more.

If you really want to get a machine to fix the "problem", pre-record your vocals and lip-synch to the tracks.  That way it'll always be the same and you won't have to learn anything.
 

Hmm... I'm not sure where it said I didn't want to learn something. I posted to the board to ask the question about presenting a conditioned signal to the board. So you're points essentially are:
1) use or learn to move the mic back and forth... better technique.
2) don't use compression because it won't sound good in the monitors
3) a single setting for compression isn't suitable for all venues.
4) allow/hope the sound guy can do his job properly

Very good advise and points well taken.

Instead I get a buried 'ass' comment and a lip-sync remark (points at least for being timely).
Grow Up.
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Re: band vocalist using compressor before going to the board
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2013, 05:12:47 PM »

Hmm... I'm not sure where it said I didn't want to learn something. I posted to the board to ask the question about presenting a conditioned signal to the board. So you're points essentially are:
1) use or learn to move the mic back and forth... better technique.
2) don't use compression because it won't sound good in the monitors
3) a single setting for compression isn't suitable for all venues.
4) allow/hope the sound guy can do his job properly

Very good advise and points well taken.

Instead I get a buried 'ass' comment and a lip-sync remark (points at least for being timely).
Grow Up.

Hey, Gene.

You did say in your OP, "I don't expect all the comments to be kind at this point- but I need some advise.

We've got to have a little fun to go along with the (free) advice.......

Edit:

Just to clarify the monitor situation a bit.......

You want your monitors to be as accurate a reference as possible so you can know whether your vocal is doing what you want or not.  If you compress your voice before it gets to the monitor, then it's not giving you an accurate representation.  In extreme cases, this can lead to "over-singing" and help you blow your voice out.

Hope that helps.

As to the "ass" comment....

That was self-deprecating Forum humor.  What it means is that I was ASSuming, meaning that I was being the ass who thought thus and thus and was apologizing in advance if I was mistaken in my ASSumption.  It had nothing to do with you.  It's reflexive.

If I wanted to dig in, it would be much worse.  As is, it was simply your unfamiliarity with Forum posting idioms.  Not your fault.

But getting back to the whole compression question:

Why do you think that compression is the solution here?  There's a whole lot more to mixing than sticking a compressor on a channel.  Actually, compression is sort of one of the last tools used to smooth out a mix and has very little to do with making the various inputs mesh sonically.  So you're assuming that the compressor is the answer the answer when it probably is not the right tool for the job.

« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 05:52:30 PM by dick rees »
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Mark McFarlane

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Re: band vocalist using compressor before going to the board
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2013, 11:03:16 PM »

One more reason to avoid compression in the monitors, if it's not set and watched carefully (e.g. too much compression, wrong threshold, or a lot of makeup gain) you are more likely to end up with feedback in the monitors when the you stop singing and the gain reduction process releases. Someone else can probably explain this better, I gotta run off to work.
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Mark McFarlane

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: band vocalist using compressor before going to the board
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2013, 11:03:16 PM »


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