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Author Topic: Main loud speaker options  (Read 47847 times)

Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #130 on: April 03, 2013, 12:08:02 pm »

One reason for that is that in most cases the desired result is not specific equipment but rather certain functionality, capabilities and performance.  Your Pastor may not care what mixer and speakers are used but they may care greatly that what they say is clearly understood by everyone.  Your musicians may not care what monitor system is used but they may want it to function in a certain way.  The Building Committee may have input on aesthetic considerations.  And so on, in many cases a successful result is defined by what the system does and how well it works rather than by the equipment used and those are aspects you may be able to greatly define before involving outside help.

Absolutely. I don't have any specific equipment in mind, but I have a pretty clear idea of what we want/need.

A system that would meet our current needs would be a system that could clearly and accurately reinforce both spoken word and music and provide even coverage to an audience of about 200 people in a room that is (roughly) 40 feet deep 40 feet wide and capable of hitting 100dBA without distortion. Stereo is not necessary, but desirable if it is practical. I'm picturing a flown central mono cluster with subs either flown, under the stage, or both. Not sure if that'd be best or not though.
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Lee Buckalew

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #131 on: April 04, 2013, 07:07:23 am »

Absolutely. I don't have any specific equipment in mind, but I have a pretty clear idea of what we want/need.

A system that would meet our current needs would be a system that could clearly and accurately reinforce both spoken word and music and provide even coverage to an audience of about 200 people in a room that is (roughly) 40 feet deep 40 feet wide and capable of hitting 100dBA without distortion. Stereo is not necessary, but desirable if it is practical. I'm picturing a flown central mono cluster with subs either flown, under the stage, or both. Not sure if that'd be best or not though.

You have a good general starting point but, your description can be met without meeting your expectation.  You need to define some measure able goals (what is "even" coverage in dB plus or minus, from what frequency to what frequency, 100dBA peak, average).  Without distortion is also open to interpretation.  I bring this up because here are companies that will provide the bare minimum and then turn it up to reach 100dBA on the Radio Shack meter and only the HF driver sections will accomplish that level.  The sound, at 100dBA would not be "pleasant" to most but it also wold not be distorted.

Lee
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #132 on: April 04, 2013, 11:31:12 am »

You have a good general starting point but, your description can be met without meeting your expectation.  You need to define some measure able goals (what is "even" coverage in dB plus or minus, from what frequency to what frequency, 100dBA peak, average).  Without distortion is also open to interpretation.  I bring this up because here are companies that will provide the bare minimum and then turn it up to reach 100dBA on the Radio Shack meter and only the HF driver sections will accomplish that level.  The sound, at 100dBA would not be "pleasant" to most but it also wold not be distorted.

Lee

What is reasonable to ask for regarding coverage in dB plus or minus?
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #133 on: April 04, 2013, 12:15:37 pm »

What is reasonable to ask for regarding coverage in dB plus or minus?
+/- 3dB is a 'starting point.  Some people say higher or lower numbers.

But you have to define what that "means".  Does it mean across the freq band?  How wide is the freq band?

Or does it mean that you put some noise in the system and walk around with an SPL meter and it needs to fall within a 6dB range?  What about the freq response.  What if some seats the HF is 6dB high and at other the LF is 6dB high.  The net result would be the same on an SPL meter-but not to the ears.

And just because a "standard" is set-does not mean that it can actually be achieved.  MANY other factors affect that-far beyond equipment choices.

We redid a large install done by a competitor awhile back-because the coverage was so bad the church was getting several hundred WRITTEN complaints about the sound each week.

So the loudspeaker manufacturer came in and "proved" that the system was with +/-4dB (the spec).  HOW can that be-I have personally measured large areas in the audience that were 25dB down across an octave or more.  At the FOH position- you could easily hear 5 different "sounds" as you walked from one side of the console to the other.

I got  a copy of the "report".  Image a graph that has a dB scale on the vertical and seating positions along the bottom (something like 50 of them).  The graph shows SPL vs seating position-and yes it was within +-4dB.

HOWEVER the system was "tuned" so that 120Hz was about 18dB higher than anything else in the freq response.  And at 120Hz, the room WAS withing +/-4dB.  BUT NOT THE REST of the freq spectrum.

I assume this manufacturer did not want to make the local installer (who installs a lot of their products) look bad.

Even though it was evident that some of the cabinets were actually pointed up at the ceiling (away from the audience).

So the church hired us to redo the system-using the same components.  We did and the complaints stopped.\

Simple numbers end up the incorrect answers
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #134 on: April 04, 2013, 12:22:44 pm »

+/- 3dB is a 'starting point.  Some people say higher or lower numbers.

But you have to define what that "means".  Does it mean across the freq band?  How wide is the freq band?

Or does it mean that you put some noise in the system and walk around with an SPL meter and it needs to fall within a 6dB range?  What about the freq response.  What if some seats the HF is 6dB high and at other the LF is 6dB high.  The net result would be the same on an SPL meter-but not to the ears.

And just because a "standard" is set-does not mean that it can actually be achieved.  MANY other factors affect that-far beyond equipment choices.

We redid a large install done by a competitor awhile back-because the coverage was so bad the church was getting several hundred WRITTEN complaints about the sound each week.

So the loudspeaker manufacturer came in and "proved" that the system was with +/-4dB (the spec).  HOW can that be-I have personally measured large areas in the audience that were 25dB down across an octave or more.  At the FOH position- you could easily hear 5 different "sounds" as you walked from one side of the console to the other.

I got  a copy of the "report".  Image a graph that has a dB scale on the vertical and seating positions along the bottom (something like 50 of them).  The graph shows SPL vs seating position-and yes it was within +-4dB.

HOWEVER the system was "tuned" so that 120Hz was about 18dB higher than anything else in the freq response.  And at 120Hz, the room WAS withing +/-4dB.  BUT NOT THE REST of the freq spectrum.

I assume this manufacturer did not want to make the local installer (who installs a lot of their products) look bad.

Even though it was evident that some of the cabinets were actually pointed up at the ceiling (away from the audience).

So the church hired us to redo the system-using the same components.  We did and the complaints stopped.\

Simple numbers end up the incorrect answers

Is it reasonable to ask for +/- 3dB to all (or at least 99%) of the congregation from 45Hz to 12KHz? Or is that more than most systems can do?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2013, 09:26:12 pm by Jason Lucas »
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Frank DeWitt

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #135 on: April 04, 2013, 12:29:25 pm »

How about including a line something like  "The system must score .80 or higher on the standard STIPA test at every seat with a test sound source 5'5" above the floor and 12 in. horizontal behind the back edge of the pulpit."

I know just numbers alone don't do it, but would it help?
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #136 on: April 08, 2013, 04:15:55 pm »

Is it reasonable to ask for +/- 3dB to all (or at least 99%) of the congregation from 45Hz to 12KHz? Or is that more than most systems can do?

I don't know if thread "bumping" is discouraged around here but I would truly like to know the answer to this question if anyone has an answer.

Is the above quoted question reasonable to ask a system designer/installer for? If not, what would have to change?
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #137 on: April 09, 2013, 12:00:21 pm »

How about including a line something like  "The system must score .80 or higher on the standard STIPA test at every seat with a test sound source 5'5" above the floor and 12 in. horizontal behind the back edge of the pulpit."

I know just numbers alone don't do it, but would it help?
If you do that-then almost all sound systems would fail.

Especially with a open mic that far away from the source.

And even if you did-that is just one measure of overall "quality".  It measures intelligibility-but says nothing about sound quality.  It could "sound" like garbage-and still get a high score. on the STIPA test.

Don't get me wrong-that is a good target to shoot for-and more systems should be actually measured for intelligibility.  At least it give a reference that is easily measured and not up for debate (at least not much anyway :))
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Frank DeWitt

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #138 on: April 09, 2013, 01:14:50 pm »

If you do that-then almost all sound systems would fail.

Especially with a open mic that far away from the source.

And even if you did-that is just one measure of overall "quality".  It measures intelligibility-but says nothing about sound quality.  It could "sound" like garbage-and still get a high score. on the STIPA test.

Don't get me wrong-that is a good target to shoot for-and more systems should be actually measured for intelligibility.  At least it give a reference that is easily measured and not up for debate (at least not much anyway :))

I agree that it should be only one specification, not THE specification.  It does seem important.  Let me lay out my thinking so I can learn .

1.  Churches exist to tell people about Christ.
2.  That implies that the people must be able to hear and understand.
3.  I fear that preachers are talking in churches thinking they are being heard when the people in the seats either can't hear, or can't understand, or are destructed by odd things like the sound coming from beside or behind them.

I have this vision of a pastor receiving a kit of instructions.  He sets up a boom box with a 3 to 4 in speaker in front of his podium and plays a supplied CD. He adjusts the podium mic, or puts his head worn mic in front of the boom box.  He then walks the room running the http://www.studiosixdigital.com/audiotools/stipa-basic.html
or something like it.
He checks the instructions for guides on what the numbers mean.

At this point he knows either
A  His flock can hear and understand him.
B  He needs help.  Call a professional.

He still doesn't know if his system sounds awful,  or if it is adequate for the worship team, or a lot of other things, but at least he has taken a first step towards being award that a big part of his ministry depends on a good sound system.

I have played with the app above and all the things that you would think should hurt the score do.  For example.  Increase the distance to the mic.  Open other mics, turn the volume down to mumble.  introduce other noise, point the PA speaker at walls or ceiling.
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roshansankar

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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #139 on: September 16, 2013, 08:23:00 pm »

I currently own four VRX932LA's, i plan to buy 2 more so i'll have 6 in total, but I need proper (affordable) amplification for them, what are your suggestions?is it better bi-amp for live applications?
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Re: Main loud speaker options
« Reply #139 on: September 16, 2013, 08:23:00 pm »


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