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[Scott Wagner]

Even if our biggest problem was speaker placement, there's really nothing we can do about it with our current speakers. If we get flyable ones, then maybe.

I recently did a charity concert in a local church that is infamous for its poor acoustics.  I, of course, brought my own rig; however, it wasn't much different than the house rig.  The biggest difference is that I deployed my speakers forward of the back wall and away from the corners.  That simple move of a few feet turned a sound nightmare into a dream - nothing but compliments all night long.  The church decision makers all assumed that the difference was my equipment.  The reality is that my simple (and free) changes in deployment mitigated most of the troublesome reflections and boundary interaction resulting in MUCH better sound.  Knowledge is much harder to aquire than new toys (and surely isn't as flashy), but it makes a much greater difference.

In your situation, with a move on the horizon, I'd recommend that you experiment with your speaker deployment (and NOT spend any money).  The beauty of SOS (speakers on sticks) is that they are portable - use that to your advantage.  In the meantime, try to convince the powers-that-be to engage a professional in the design, planning, and deployment for the new facility.  Believe it or not, but it WILL save the church money in the long run.

[Jason Lucas]

Hi Jason.  You've done some research, but many options on your list aren't better than what you already have, and a few are MUCH worse.  I agree that it's doubtful you'll be able to be confident that anything you buy today will be the right fit for a hypothetical building at some point in the future.  If you really have a problem that different speakers can solve, I'd suggest getting something right for your current situation, and not worry about a future situation. 

What is that problem by the way? I don't think you've said.  Why passive?  If only so that you could potentially re-use them in a permanent install, I'd skip this.  It's significantly more difficult to make a passive system sound good (especially a cheap one) compared to an active system where the manufacturer has already done a lot of the box tuning and alignment.

Is $3000 for each speaker, or for a pair plus an amp?  If $3000 total, you're probably already toast.

Passive speakers are more portable because they don't have to be near an outlet, and there's only one cable. With passive speakers the components are separate, and you can upgrade them individually.

If we were buying new speakers I would not want to get ones that were specifically setup for our room, because they probably won't work for the new room. Since we take our speakers with us on retreats, we still need a good portable system, and I think we could do better than the PRX.

I recently did a charity concert in a local church that is infamous for its poor acoustics.  I, of course, brought my own rig; however, it wasn't much different than the house rig.  The biggest difference is that I deployed my speakers forward of the back wall and away from the corners.  That simple move of a few feet turned a sound nightmare into a dream - nothing but compliments all night long.  The church decision makers all assumed that the difference was my equipment.  The reality is that my simple (and free) changes in deployment mitigated most of the troublesome reflections and boundary interaction resulting in MUCH better sound.  Knowledge is much harder to aquire than new toys (and surely isn't as flashy), but it makes a much greater difference.

In your situation, with a move on the horizon, I'd recommend that you experiment with your speaker deployment (and NOT spend any money).  The beauty of SOS (speakers on sticks) is that they are portable - use that to your advantage.  In the meantime, try to convince the powers-that-be to engage a professional in the design, planning, and deployment for the new facility.  Believe it or not, but it WILL save the church money in the long run.

We have like less than 5 feet of space within which we can move our speakers.

This is how the JBLs are setup:

View from balcony
View from back row, center aisle
View from sound booth
Looking left from Pastor's seat
Looking right from Pastor's seat
View from back row, right aisle

We've turned them inward as much as we can without the outer aisles losing too much direct sound. We've also tried moving the speakers closer to the center of the stage but no one liked it.

[Josh Daws]

JBL VRX if you wish to fly them, OR SRX if you don't...you can save a little bit of money there...

you will want something of a line array type configuration IMO. you will get better coverage...there is also very few cheap line array speakers...

however the new PRX 600 series is considerably better than the previous 500 series...

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

JBL VRX if you wish to fly them, OR SRX if you don't...you can save a little bit of money there...

you will want something of a line array type configuration IMO. you will get better coverage...there is also very few cheap line array speakers...

however the new PRX 600 series is considerably better than the previous 500 series...

?? Why does he want a "line array"?  I can see nothing about this room that would be better with a line array.  VRX is not a line array, anyway.  SRX has been discontinued, STX will blow the $3K budget, and (IMO) not sound as good as what he's already using without some tuning and a reasonable amp/DSP.

To fix any real problems in this room would require installing speakers in a reasonable location, and choosing speakers that fit the coverage requirements of the room.

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

Passive speakers are more portable because they don't have to be near an outlet, and there's only one cable. With passive speakers the components are separate, and you can upgrade them individually.

If we were buying new speakers I would not want to get ones that were specifically setup for our room, because they probably won't work for the new room. Since we take our speakers with us on retreats, we still need a good portable system, and I think we could do better than the PRX.

We have like less than 5 feet of space within which we can move our speakers.

This is how the JBLs are setup:

View from balcony
View from back row, center aisle
View from sound booth
Looking left from Pastor's seat
Looking right from Pastor's seat
View from back row, right aisle

We've turned them inward as much as we can without the outer aisles losing too much direct sound. We've also tried moving the speakers closer to the center of the stage but no one liked it.

You still haven't told us what's wrong with what you have - i.e. not clear, not loud enough, coverage holes, too loud at front, too quiet at back, not enough bass, etc. 

Passive speakers aren't really any more portable than active - I would argue the reverse.  For portable use, passive speakers mean hauling around an amp rack, while active it's inside.  As to the two cables thing - several vendors make a combo XLR/power cable if that really bothers you.

If your whole budget is $3K, you're not going to do better than what you have.  If your budget is $10K you could get a great Nexo PS15 system, JBL VP series, and a few other choices I'm sure.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

You still haven't told us what's wrong with what you have - i.e. not clear, not loud enough, coverage holes, too loud at front, too quiet at back, not enough bass, etc. 

After looking at the pictures and seeing the huge, flat slabs of ceiling angled in at the seating area, I'd say it's a lose-lose situation IF the musicians idea of "joyful noise" is "high SPL".  In a room like that, the majority of seating will be in the reverberative field, not the direct field.  The louder the source, the more reverberation and the less intelligibility/clarity.

[Jason Lucas]

You still haven't told us what's wrong with what you have - i.e. not clear, not loud enough, coverage holes, too loud at front, too quiet at back, not enough bass, etc. 

Passive speakers aren't really any more portable than active - I would argue the reverse.  For portable use, passive speakers mean hauling around an amp rack, while active it's inside.  As to the two cables thing - several vendors make a combo XLR/power cable if that really bothers you.

If your whole budget is $3K, you're not going to do better than what you have.  If your budget is $10K you could get a great Nexo PS15 system, JBL VP series, and a few other choices I'm sure.

Well, first of all, me, the other sound guys, the band leader and even the senior pastor don't think the JBLs sound all that great. So, there's that.

The speakers also don't appear to provide enough coverage for our room, so we have to run that center cluster you can see flown from the ceiling in the pictures posted above. The center cluster sounds pretty awful, but it's needed in order to cover the whole room. We've tried running without it but then the people in the center can't hear the vocals.

**We don't have any issues with things being too quiet. Our system easily puts out enough SPL for us (although I'd like to be able to feel the kick drum without triggering the limiter on the sub...)**

The PRX cabs also don't seem very durable. While we haven't "babied" them, we also haven't really abused them, but they're showing a lot of wear and tear for the length of time we've had them.

We have to haul a rack anyway because of our mic receivers and floor monitor amps. Besides, they make amps that weigh less than 20 pounds now. So I still believe passive speakers are more portable.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

Well, first of all, me, the other sound guys, the band leader and even the senior pastor don't think the JBLs sound all that great. So, there's that.

The speakers also don't appear to provide enough coverage for our room, so we have to run that center cluster you can see flown from the ceiling in the pictures posted above. The center cluster sounds pretty awful, but it's needed in order to cover the whole room. We've tried running without it but then the people in the center can't hear the vocals.

As for the low end - the bass is much stronger in the sides than in the middle of the room. As you move from the center aisle to either of the outer aisles, the bass gets stronger and then weaker again as you move back to the middle. It's pretty consistent from front to back, though.

**We don't have any issues with things being too quiet. Our system easily puts out enough SPL for us (although I'd like to be able to feel the kick drum without triggering the limiter on the sub...)**

The PRX cabs also don't seem very durable. While we haven't "babied" them, we also haven't really abused them, but they're showing a lot of wear and tear for the length of time we've had them.

We have to haul a rack anyway because of our mic receivers and floor monitor amps. Besides, they make amps that weigh less than 20 pounds now. So I still believe passive speakers are more portable.

Jason....

I'm going to say one last thing and then sign off on your various threads.

You're looking for a technical solution to a human problem.  Throwing money and gear at the situation is not going to help until you all learn how to and how NOT to do sound IN AN ENCLOSED SPACE.

First (and majorly), you've got MULTIPLE SOURCES FOR THE SAME SOUND.  You've got the cluster, your "mains" and any stage sound (at whatever level).  This is the ingredients list for MUD.

Secondly (and this is an informed speculation on my part), you're attempting to "mix" all the instruments and people through the system as you imagine that's how sound is done.

One reliable solution to all this is to simply put your mains where they belong REGARDLESS OF WHETHER PEOPLE LIKE IT OR NOT, shut off the center cluster, bring the vocals up where they are nice and clear and can be heard over the largest part of the seating area.  Then and ONLY THEN, add in the instruments WITHOUT THE SOUND SYSTEM.  If there is anything "missing" at that point, delicately add it into the mains.

Bottom line is you're doing things in a way that is destined to fail NO MATTER HOW MUCH MONEY YOU THROW DOWN THE TOILET. 

It's not the gear.  It's how you're (mis)using it.

[Jason Lucas]

Jason....

I'm going to say one last thing and then sign off on your various threads.

You're looking for a technical solution to a human problem.  Throwing money and gear at the situation is not going to help until you all learn how to and how NOT to do sound IN AN ENCLOSED SPACE.

First (and majorly), you've got MULTIPLE SOURCES FOR THE SAME SOUND.  You've got the cluster, your "mains" and any stage sound (at whatever level).  This is the ingredients list for MUD.

Secondly (and this is an informed speculation on my part), you're attempting to "mix" all the instruments and people through the system as you imagine that's how sound is done.

One reliable solution to all this is to simply put your mains where they belong REGARDLESS OF WHETHER PEOPLE LIKE IT OR NOT, shut off the center cluster, bring the vocals up where they are nice and clear and can be heard over the largest part of the seating area.  Then and ONLY THEN, add in the instruments WITHOUT THE SOUND SYSTEM.  If there is anything "missing" at that point, delicately add it into the mains.

Bottom line is you're doing things in a way that is destined to fail NO MATTER HOW MUCH MONEY YOU THROW DOWN THE TOILET. 

It's not the gear.  It's how you're (mis)using it.

Actually the end goal IS to "mix" all of the instruments and people through the system. Once we have IEMs and take the guitar amps off stage that will be the case.

I am completely aware that we have multiple sources for the same sound and that it's creating mud. If I could do anything about it I would. But we don't have enough coverage from the JBLs, and we don't have good IEMs for the guitar players.

Believe it or not, out of every configuration we've attempted, this is the best we've been able to come up with. How it sounds now is the best it's ever sounded in this building.

[TJ (Tom) Cornish]

Actually the end goal IS to "mix" all of the instruments and people through the system. Once we have IEMs and take the guitar amps off stage that will be the case.

I am completely aware that we have multiple sources for the same sound and that it's creating mud. If I could do anything about it I would. But we don't have enough coverage from the JBLs, and we don't have good IEMs for the guitar players.

Believe it or not, out of every configuration we've attempted, this is the best we've been able to come up with. How it sounds now is the best it's ever sounded in this building.

Sounds like applying your $3K to IEMs might be a good start.

[ProSoundWeb Community]