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Author Topic: How can this even bother me?  (Read 12038 times)

Bob Leonard

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Re: How can this even bother me?
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2013, 02:39:26 pm »

Nick,
The reduction in consumer costs is based on a very complex formula. One major reason for the reduction will always be based on demand. The end result of demand is enhanced manufacturing technique and better design which leads to lower component counts, which leads to lower manufacturing costs and then lower consumer pricing.

Components are maturing at a much faster rate then ever before as proven designs and tooling can and will be used for the next generation component. Boards that once required a hundred or a thousand external capacitors, resistors and op amps are now manufactured using a single chip.

It is usually the electromechanical components, chassis and housing that will continue to hold costs high, depending on the quality and materials used. Not having moving faders is a considerable cost savings, one large reason the Presonus boards can be sold cheaply. Housings and chassis made to loose specs decrease assembly time and manufacturing time. even the lettering and paint have an effect.
 
There is no substitute for quality, and quality will always cost more.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 02:42:53 pm by Bob Leonard »
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BOSTON STRONG........
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: How can this even bother me?
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2013, 03:06:59 pm »

JR, I kinda understand the business side of it.  Just to sort of put it in perspective (what I meant), I remember back eons ago when the VCR first came out (or plasma tvs for that matter) The price was like $600+ for a unit that had a wired remote, one head and could only record one show at a time,. (same with plasma, a basic 50" was about $9k), but even as the technology got better, the price dropped. I paid like $450 for my first VCR similar to the one described Two years later, they had all the bells and whistles for a c-note, and now obsolete (I just got a 51" plasma smart tv with 3D for waaay less than a grand). ... but you can bet that the manufacturers were charging as much as they could, for as long as they could, before somebody stepped in with something better for cheaper.   Volume rules in this economy...

The VCR is an interesting example since it was a complex new technology involving high NRE and huge capital investment, while ultimately enjoying a huge consumer market that drove down costs. I don't know if you are talking retail or wholesale, but early VCRs were well over $1k retail. After selling many millions of units <$100.

While the X-32's 30k unit sales is nothing to sneeze at, it is not mass market consumer numbers, while it will help Uli keep the lights on another year or two.  8)

Looking at the X-32 program IMO the NRE is mostly software development, with the scariest hardware (IMO) being the moving faders. Both moving faders and digital consoles are mature technology that has been around for decades already, so not exactly breaking any new ground regarding technology. Even the digital guts have cost economics being driven lower by the larger consumer market, not just the modest live sound market. I wouldn't be surprised if more X-32 were bought for recording than live use.

If anything, Uli made a winning bet that the market could support thousands of digital mixers at a few $k price point. Apparently that market can support a few tens of k units. Midas or any other existing digital console company could have made a similar bet if they had the same manufacturing muscle (and/or capital resources) behind them to back up that bet. Others probably should have, but didn't.

Uli deserves credit for making a smart bet/investment, but he didn't create something truly novel from whole cloth. That powerful price/performance milestone is making ripples in the industry and he can make hay while he enjoys his current position as leading that category, he pioneered. Now is the hard part and he seems to be making it though this roll-out without apparent disasters. Next phase is competition but he is no shrinking violet when it comes to that.     

 JR
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David Parker

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Re: How can this even bother me?
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2013, 03:20:06 pm »

The VCR is an interesting example since it was a complex new technology involving high NRE and huge capital investment, while ultimately enjoying a huge consumer market that drove down costs. I don't know if you are talking retail or wholesale, but early VCRs were well over $1k retail. After selling many millions of units <$100.


 JR

the short lived adat multitrack recorders used existing technology from VCRs to save money and guarantee reliable performance. I guess the only thing that survived from that design was the light pipe.
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Nick Simon

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Re: How can this even bother me?
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2013, 03:55:14 pm »

The VCR is an interesting example since it was a complex new technology involving high NRE and huge capital investment, while ultimately enjoying a huge consumer market that drove down costs. I don't know if you are talking retail or wholesale, but early VCRs were well over $1k retail. After selling many millions of units <$100.

While the X-32's 30k unit sales is nothing to sneeze at, it is not mass market consumer numbers, while it will help Uli keep the lights on another year or two.  8)

Looking at the X-32 program IMO the NRE is mostly software development, with the scariest hardware (IMO) being the moving faders. Both moving faders and digital consoles are mature technology that has been around for decades already, so not exactly breaking any new ground regarding technology. Even the digital guts have cost economics being driven lower by the larger consumer market, not just the modest live sound market. I wouldn't be surprised if more X-32 were bought for recording than live use.

If anything, Uli made a winning bet that the market could support thousands of digital mixers at a few $k price point. Apparently that market can support a few tens of k units. Midas or any other existing digital console company could have made a similar bet if they had the same manufacturing muscle (and/or capital resources) behind them to back up that bet. Others probably should have, but didn't.

Uli deserves credit for making a smart bet/investment, but he didn't create something truly novel from whole cloth. That powerful price/performance milestone is making ripples in the industry and he can make hay while he enjoys his current position as leading that category, he pioneered. Now is the hard part and he seems to be making it though this roll-out without apparent disasters. Next phase is competition but he is no shrinking violet when it comes to that.     

 JR

not really a fanboy, but excited to have this technology in my hands.. which up to this point, was way out of my/our price range and having to settle for "PV" stuff....  Also, Uli was smart to build this on a "living" platform, in esssence, having 20k+ R&D folks to tweak the product and come up with new ideas to incorporate into the "family" of mixers.  I Just read a post this morning about the 2.0 firmware release scheduled later on and asking what things owners would like to see included (as with most releases to date), including onboard RTA, more "lexicon" effects, etc.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 03:59:49 pm by Nick Simon »
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Luke Geis

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Re: How can this even bother me?
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2013, 04:49:18 pm »

Now we are talking about old technology vs recent technology. The classic Plasma big screen that once went for 9k that you can now get for under 1k scenario. I don't feel that applies to our industry. Analog desks have been around for many many years and some still cost as much as a house! The SC-48 is based off of technology that has been out and sold to the general public for well over 10 years already and the price of the desk is the same as it was when it first came out. They will never lower the price of the desk. Same with Yamaha....... The LS9 and M7 have been around for nearly 10 years. I haven't heard of any significant price drop on either desk which is nearly on their way out the door. Midas has been selling Verona's for many years and you can bet that the price is the same today as it was 10 or more years ago. If you could buy a brand new high end desk today for half, or less than what it cost five years ago from the same company, then we have a comparison. That just doesn't happen in our industry. You have to buy the knock off of the thing to get it at half price. The closest thing to the AVID desks knock off is the S.A.C system which allows use of Direct-X and VST plug ins!

It still stands with me that there is no way a mixer of any sort can cost as much as a car, or more. If brand B, or C can be sold for less than half the price at the cost of some durability, there is a premium that your paying for the brand A product. Be it the added level of quality, or the slightly better functionality, your ultimately paying more for the name, not the technology held within. If they sold the Brand A product at the same price as Behringer, everybody and their brother would buy them and destroy them. This is what Brand A doesn't want. They want the same money ( if not lots more ) and the security that only the best in the industry will be playing with their product.

Case in point. D&B will only sell product to companies or people that have been through their training program. They don't want the average joe getting a hand on their product and destroying the name. This is a program that you must pay to go to of course. This extends beyond even that. They keep tabs on the companies that have their product for rental stock to be sure that renter's of the product are also trained via their program. They don't want just anyone using it.

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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: How can this even bother me?
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2013, 05:17:20 pm »

not really a fanboy, but excited to have this technology in my hands.. which up to this point, was way out of my/our price range and having to settle for "PV" stuff....  Also, Uli was smart to build this on a "living" platform, in esssence, having 20k+ R&D folks to tweak the product and come up with new ideas to incorporate into the "family" of mixers.  I Just read a post this morning about the 2.0 firmware release scheduled later on and asking what things owners would like to see included (as with most releases to date), including onboard RTA, more "lexicon" effects, etc.

I've heard the living platform spiel before... as in "this will never be obsolete, we'll just issue new software." Just think about how many old PCs you threw away, because newer, cheaper, faster hardware came along.

I still predict consoles will disappear completely, with the functional circuitry being absorbed into other parts of the system that do actual useful stuff we can't live without (like speakers). 

But what do I know...

JR
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Brian Larson

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How can this even bother me?
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2013, 05:51:48 pm »

Well if at any point you read any of said posts you would see that people, myself included, are for the most part extremely happy with the X32 and the support from Behringer. The one I put in my club gig came with in input card not fully seated and I didn't have channels 9-16 and 25-32. A behringer rep personally showed up at the club, we opened up the desk and he re-seated the cards and all was well. He also had a loaner desk ready to give me in case the desk had to be sent back. That is service, and an indication of a company who actually cares about having satisfied customers.

Do not mistake an aggressive PR campaign for "a company who cares". Uli is still playing damage control for the years of bad mouthing his brand has taken. Behringer is trying VERY hard to convince us that they have changed their ways by going above and beyond trying to fix issues like yours. Whether or not they keep this attitude up after they have taken the majority of the market is yet to be seen and will not be seen for at least another two or three years.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: How can this even bother me?
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2013, 06:03:15 pm »

Do not mistake an aggressive PR campaign for "a company who cares". Uli is still playing damage control for the years of bad mouthing his brand has taken. Behringer is trying VERY hard to convince us that they have changed their ways by going above and beyond trying to fix issues like yours. Whether or not they keep this attitude up after they have taken the majority of the market is yet to be seen and will not be seen for at least another two or three years.

+1.  I'm still cynical about the leopard's new spots.  I suspect it's a dye job.
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Re: How can this even bother me?
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2013, 06:07:26 pm »

+1.  I'm still cynical about the leopard's new spots.  I suspect it's a dye job.

It's a case of do or dye, then?
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: How can this even bother me?
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2013, 06:39:12 pm »

He deserves the opportunity to walk his new talk. Even if he has changed his spots and behaves like a model citizen from here until the end of his days, it won't erase history. I can't even predict what I will do tomorrow, so I surely can't predict what he will do in the future.

The new guys are entitled to their opinions based on their recent anecdotal experiences. This may seem as valid to them as our decades of experience seems to us.

I grow weary of lecturing history to students that don't care a lick, so why should I? Just appreciate that it is possible other people might be basing their opinions on first hand experience formed over a long time period and involving numerous events. Both opinions can even be correct within their different contexts.

None of us can predict the future (as much as I try). 

JR

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Re: How can this even bother me?
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2013, 06:39:12 pm »


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