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Author Topic: How can this even bother me?  (Read 11971 times)

Jim Turner

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How can this even bother me?
« on: January 27, 2013, 12:09:55 am »

 I find myself upet by all the posts concerning the new CHEAP "consoles"...
How can a line up of new products made cheaply by the cheaply assembled robots in the cheapest of the cheap factories even garner our attention? I mean really?!?
 Sure, the guitar player in some cover band somewhere read somewhere in a GUITAR mag that these things are "game changers" but really? We all know they couldn't make any piece of gear that would last beyond a few gigs and/or moving a few times before it #@*%^ itself prior to now. How are these new CHEAP products any different?
 I guess what really bugs me is the fact that I'm unsure about the future for some formerly "industry standard" brands that have been assimilated into the collective.
There... I said it. Rant over. Flame suit on. Cheers!
« Last Edit: January 27, 2013, 12:40:49 am by cyriljamesturner »
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Evan Hunter

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Re: How can this even bother me?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2013, 12:52:41 am »

I guess what really bugs me is the fact that I'm unsure about the future for some formerly "industry standard" brands that have been assimilated into the collective.


I can agree with the quoted section. I often worry about quality of some of the more "prestige" brands we have enjoyed for so long after they are acquired by other entities. Obviously corners are cut somewhere in manufacturing a "cheap" product. But it is also possible they fill a different niche. Thinking outside the box, as technology changes and an industry grows it could possible to design and build a product faster and more efficient, especially in certain niches or customer bases. IE, your guitar player isnt going to buy a Midas XL8 and you likely wont see an X32 on any arena shows.

I dont know, its my immediate thoughts.  Im sure others will have wiser words.
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Evan F. Hunter
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: How can this even bother me?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2013, 03:11:14 am »

I find myself upet by all the posts concerning the new CHEAP "consoles"...
How can a line up of new products made cheaply by the cheaply assembled robots in the cheapest of the cheap factories even garner our attention? I mean really?!?

People are easily distracted by bright, shiny objects.  Especially cheap, bright shiny objects.

Quote
Sure, the guitar player in some cover band somewhere read somewhere in a GUITAR mag that these things are "game changers" but really? We all know they couldn't make any piece of gear that would last beyond a few gigs and/or moving a few times before it #@*%^ itself prior to now. How are these new CHEAP products any different?

We don't know yet.  It's one thing to design a product, another to build it, and yet another thing to see what customers will subject it to.  Soundcraft is building a less expensive digital mixer, where did they take out 40%?

Quote
I guess what really bugs me is the fact that I'm unsure about the future for some formerly "industry standard" brands that have been assimilated into the collective.
There... I said it. Rant over. Flame suit on. Cheers!

The ROI for manufacturers is tougher at the very top end of their model line.  Sure, bigger and more expensive goodies but they come with R&D price tags to match.  The low and mid level products will subsidize the R&D for the big boy toys.

What I think you will see at all levels is a faster product "churn", but faster particularly for the top end... the things that traditionally haven't changed as fast.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: How can this even bother me?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2013, 05:41:26 am »

There is a difference between cheap and low cost. It's up to the purchaser to make the distinction and the right choice. I know the difference, and I play guitar, duh.
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Samuel Rees

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How can this even bother me?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2013, 07:44:47 am »

We don't know yet.  It's one thing to design a product, another to build it, and yet another thing to see what customers will subject it to.  Soundcraft is building a less expensive digital mixer, where did they take out 40%?

That's a good question. That said, I don't know how the costs of digital mixers typically stack up for companies. If say, R&D is more expensive than parts then once that cash is spent it's spent and the company can set prices more freely? (I can't imagine this is true though). For example does a GLD cost what it costs because that's what cost+x% is, or mostly because that's what they think its worth? Haha in simple terms... Could everyone drop their prices by 40% and still turn a profit, or is Soundcraft special?
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Bob Leonard

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Re: How can this even bother me?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2013, 08:04:02 am »

After computing the costs for R&D, marketing, service. etc. are computed the manufacturer will set a MSRP. or suggested list price. The resellers costs are generally well below the MSRP, usually by 40% or more. If the reseller is given a MAP (minimum advertized price) then that is not the price they have to sell the item for, but the lowest price they can put in print. Manufacturers do this to keep dicounters honest. Volume dealers will usually receive up to 5% additional discount allowing them to quote another dealers cost and still make a marginal profit.

R&D costs can be recovered against more than one product. Power supplies, faders, chips remain the same, portions of the design remain the same, and the manufacturer can use those "building blocks" to design and assemble a newer product in less time, with less money.

I would be quite sure in my thoughts that Soundcraft has used a good number of their proven "building blocks" to create the compact. This to me means proven technology, reliability using proven design, the use of proven existing assembly methods and components. That is IMO the reason Soundcraft can compete with the Behringers and Presonus of the world. They've been around, they're proven, they have "building blocks" to work with ( why are all Presonus boards the same???), and they have one huge company behind them. That all equates to lower prices.
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David Parker

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Re: How can this even bother me?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2013, 09:08:03 am »

as soon as I first used a digital mixer, I said that the prices would drop dramatically, and they would be cheaper than analog. They have a lot less parts. the new mackie that requires an ipad to operate took this thing even further than I imagined. Instead of one set of controls that is assignable to every input and output, they have no sets of controls, the control are all in the ipad that they buyer provides, and also uses for his other computer activities. theoretically, you could have a 1000 channel digital mixer with only one knob and one button. I fell in love with the concept of the new mackie 16 channel mixer, and can imagine that concept being expanded. I'd own one, but all of the bands I work for require more than 16 inputs. Also, my first experience with a digital mixer was a mackie TT24 and it crashed before I got to use it live.
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: How can this even bother me?
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2013, 10:29:52 am »

Product pricing is a sharp pencil precise science based on vague (very human) ASSumptions about future sales volume. NRE (Non recurring engineering) costs can have a huge price impact if only spread over hundreds of units, not so much price impact when spread over tens of thousands. A chicken/egg issue arises where basing cost recapture on low sales volume assumptions, that can lead to higher prices, that damp those very sales. OTOH, high volume assumptions, do not always come true, while you very rarely realize high volume sales by accident.   

JR
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Dave Scarlett

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Re: How can this even bother me?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2013, 02:30:34 pm »

My day job involves the other type of instruments... process instrumentation, sensors and digital control systems that run refineries and chemical plants. When I started a typical flow meter was about a $1000 an inch, so a 6 inch unit ran about $6K.

About ten years ago a new player came on the market in a big way, a German company who introduced quality products to industry at never before seen prices. I now work for Siemens and our 6 inch flow meter sells for around $2K. Mr. Behringer has already changed this market in a similar way I believe.
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Curtis Sumter

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Re: How can this even bother me?
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2013, 09:24:35 am »

I'm guessing that a lot of parts that were made in America, The UK or Germany is now being made in China for a fraction on what the parts use to cost. It still does not necessarily make the parts "cheap". Manufactures can have parts made to their specs, so the parts are the same, just made with cheaper labor. I'm sure that on the lower end equipment somethings have been changed to lower cost like less steel and more plastic but that's not a bad thing altogether if you have to move heavy equipment every night.
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Re: How can this even bother me?
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2013, 09:24:35 am »


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