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Author Topic: Church install..  (Read 3394 times)

Al Rettich

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Church install..
« on: January 26, 2013, 03:46:32 pm »

Hello everyone, I hope all is well.. So I got my hands on a bid packet yesterday that has me a bit dumbfounded.. The bid packet is a complete church sound overhaul! They built a new Sanctuary that holds 3900 people. Monitor world is the simplest part of the whole thing. Flown side fills, and a pair of wedges under the deck in blow through at the podium. Mostly all in ears instead of wedges. FOH gets a bit tricky.. They are asking for a Avid Mix Rack with a remote input cage. Back in the video world they are changing out the Mackie 568 console with a Avid SC48. Here is where it gets tricky (for me at least!).. A DVD player is one of the inputs for the FOH console. These inputs feed a direct outputs that go directly into the SC48. The SC48 will then have the video left/right go through a set outputs that will feed into a unknown unit that will split the signal up into Dolby 5.1 that will feed a secondary PA for the audience to watch movies in the Sanctuary and receive 5.1 surround. The SC48 however, will have it's main L/R feed yet another unknown processor that will take the L/R and make it a Dolby 5.1 that can get paired with the video of their sermons and recorded onto the DVD's. I spent a good portion of yesterday, and so far the best part of this afternoon looking for unknown processor! I see the Dolby DP569, but apparently AES has accepted BNC as a input source. How do you take a digital AES XLR into a unbalanced BNC?

Wondering if someone could help in a area, that I'm not 100% familiar with..
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Al Rettich

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Re: Church install..
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2013, 03:58:20 pm »

Is there any plug ins for the SC48 that will allow it to be used as a 5.1 surround mixer?
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TonyWilliams

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Church install..
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2013, 04:00:39 pm »

Markertek.com sells AES XLR to BNC adapters. Just a balanced to unbalanced transformer I believe. Hope this helps.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Church install..
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2013, 04:13:48 pm »

Hello everyone, I hope all is well.. So I got my hands on a bid packet yesterday that has me a bit dumbfounded.. The bid packet is a complete church sound overhaul! They built a new Sanctuary that holds 3900 people. Monitor world is the simplest part of the whole thing. Flown side fills, and a pair of wedges under the deck in blow through at the podium. Mostly all in ears instead of wedges. FOH gets a bit tricky.. They are asking for a Avid Mix Rack with a remote input cage. Back in the video world they are changing out the Mackie 568 console with a Avid SC48. Here is where it gets tricky (for me at least!).. A DVD player is one of the inputs for the FOH console. These inputs feed a direct outputs that go directly into the SC48. The SC48 will then have the video left/right go through a set outputs that will feed into a unknown unit that will split the signal up into Dolby 5.1 that will feed a secondary PA for the audience to watch movies in the Sanctuary and receive 5.1 surround. The SC48 however, will have it's main L/R feed yet another unknown processor that will take the L/R and make it a Dolby 5.1 that can get paired with the video of their sermons and recorded onto the DVD's. I spent a good portion of yesterday, and so far the best part of this afternoon looking for unknown processor! I see the Dolby DP569, but apparently AES has accepted BNC as a input source. How do you take a digital AES XLR into a unbalanced BNC?

Wondering if someone could help in a area, that I'm not 100% familiar with..
Since you are bidding on a package-the designer of the system should have included that in the design.  I would ask them how they plan on doing it.

Or is the design a "general concept"?  If that is the case-then be VERY CAREFUL.  They may spec a particular performance-but yet have no idea how to achieve it-and will leave that up to the installer.

This type of thing can get ugly with lots of finger pointing REAL quick.  SOMEBODY has to be responsible for the design and outcome.

It is very hard to try and do surround sound for a large group of people.  Yeah the ones in the middle will be fine-but when you get near any of the 5 sources-it gets real hard to do it-right anyway.  sure you can get "something"-but what sort of importance is the customer going to place on the actual performance?

I'm not saying it can't be done-but the shape of the room has to "support it"-and you have to have a well designed sound system.
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Ivan Beaver
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Al Rettich

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Re: Church install..
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2013, 04:24:19 pm »

Ivan,
They didn't go through a "designer". Honestly, I think I'm shooting myself in the foot, cause the person who wrote the spec (which couldn't be anymore vague), is the FOH engineer, and works for a competing audio company. I have sent several emails with questions, and the email I got back about a hour ago, said those questions hadn't been thought about. Currently they are using the mackie console to record on to two Alesis ADAT HD24's. They are taking away the ADAT's and using the ProTools 32 tracks off the SC48.

I see this getting ugly quick, like you said.. Might be a good one to pass on, but either way it wouldn't hurt to have the knowledge of processors.

I found a computer software that you feed it six mono lines, and it will encode those into Dolby 5.1 L/R that can be recorded onto DVD's
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Marc Platt

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Re: Church install..
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2013, 04:29:25 pm »

I'm not saying it can't be done-but the shape of the room has to "support it"-and you have to have a well designed sound system.

What about multiple smaller surround zones, each targetted to a a specific seating location. 3900 seperate systems.
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Tom Young

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Re: Church install..
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2013, 05:32:02 pm »

I think I'm shooting myself in the foot, cause the person who wrote the spec (which couldn't be anymore vague), is the FOH engineer, and works for a competing audio company. I have sent several emails with questions, and the email I got back about a hour ago, said those questions hadn't been thought about. .......I see this getting ugly quick, like you said.. Might be a good one to pass on, but either way it wouldn't hurt to have the knowledge of processors.

THEY are shooting you in the foot.

Despite the possibility that they are sincere in their intent to obtain a competive/comparative bid from another vendor..... you would have to do something very substantial to win this bid from the company that employs the house sound guy. Among other possibile problems (for you) is that he may be privvy to what your bid is and can advise his employer so they bid less. His vagueness is a big red flag and this issue (surround sound), as well as others, can be used to make you look ill-informed or, worse yet, unable to deliver what they think they want.

One of the skills an experienced professional posesses (and is almost always based on making some wrong decisions along the way), is to know when to walk away, or pass.

At the very least you need to perhaps have a meeting and provide a list of any questions you might have as well as other concerns. Make sure you become very clear about what is going on and what you are getting involved with.

Bottom line: if you win this bid, you own it.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Church install..
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2013, 05:56:00 pm »


What about multiple smaller surround zones, each targetted to a a specific seating location. 3900 seperate systems.
While the idea of individual systems at first seems like a good one-we have to quickly realize that sound does not behave like light.

In other words we cannot "focus" it where we want it-despite what some manufacturers may tell you.

Sure we can choose an area and model it and show that the coverage is good for surround.  HOWEVER-what happens when you turn on all the OTHER surround systems.  Unless you are using REALLY LARGE HORNS for the surrounds (and even that is not good enough), you will hear the other systems.  The whole sound would quickly become a jumbled mess.

It can be done-IF everything is "laid out" for it OK--you can't do it in every room. The largest room I have done it in was about 2,000 seats and it worked pretty well.  UNTIL the house sound guy decided that "surround" was the way to mix the band (you know guitar in Left-piano in right-bass in rear right and so forth-not to mention different vocals in each of the different channels)-and then it all started falling apart.

The drums were pretty cool when he went around the set-but it was like a guitar effect that was used all the time-just o much.

The Church leadership decided that it wasn't worth making a mess of the regular service-just so movies would be better.  So the surrounds were removed and they just used LCR.

As Tom said-I would be VERY careful with this one-you could easily step on a landmine.  Sometimes you just have to walk away-no matter how much it might "hurt".  You could end up losing a lot more than you would make on the job.

And with a competitor in the drivers seat-he could make it real tough on you-constant "little things", complaining about this and that etc.  Hopefully he would not sabotage the system.  This has happened.





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A complex question is easily answered by a simple-easy to understand WRONG answer!

Ivan Beaver
Danley Sound Labs

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Thomas Lamb

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Re: Church install..
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2013, 06:38:32 pm »

THEY are shooting you in the foot.

Despite the possibility that they are sincere in their intent to obtain a competive/comparative bid from another vendor..... you would have to do something very substantial to win this bid from the company that employs the house sound guy. Among other possibile problems (for you) is that he may be privvy to what your bid is and can advise his employer so they bid less. His vagueness is a big red flag and this issue (surround sound), as well as others, can be used to make you look ill-informed or, worse yet, unable to deliver what they think they want.

One of the skills an experienced professional posesses (and is almost always based on making some wrong decisions along the way), is to know when to walk away, or pass.

At the very least you need to perhaps have a meeting and provide a list of any questions you might have as well as other concerns. Make sure you become very clear about what is going on and what you are getting involved with.

Bottom line: if you win this bid, you own it.

This is why The company i consult for ONLY does box sales to my church.  They are a good company and would be competitive in pricing regardless but the owner is really good to my church. However, on larger projects I am a part of the design and consulting but we have decided it is a conflict of interest to bid on those jobs. I wouldn't want to bid against someone in the inside! IMHO they should step away in the best interest of the church. Price is NOT what is always in the churches best interest!
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Caleb Dueck

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Re: Church install..
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2013, 07:10:32 pm »

Agree, walk away, or try to get hired to design the system correctly (if that is a skill set you offer).  Looks like a "courtesy bid" situation. 
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Re: Church install..
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2013, 07:10:32 pm »


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