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Author Topic: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?  (Read 33579 times)

Jason Lucas

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Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
« Reply #110 on: May 14, 2013, 04:22:34 pm »

It's fine to look at what others are doing and think through whether or not that approach will work for you, but don't ever do something just because someone else does it that way.

That's all I do.
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
« Reply #111 on: May 14, 2013, 04:23:21 pm »

While you can mix your kick and and kick out all night, I think you'll find that isn't how most people use them. I use multiple kick mic's to better capture a more complex sound, or process 'click' and 'boom' separately. If available I'll gang them or put them on a VCA.

Processing 'click' and 'boom' separately would be the goal in this case.
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TJ (Tom) Cornish

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Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
« Reply #112 on: May 14, 2013, 04:34:11 pm »

Processing 'click' and 'boom' separately would be the goal in this case.
Which you can get 80% of the benefit of with the one mic split into two channels.  I often do this with a Cajon.
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Tommy Peel

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Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
« Reply #113 on: May 14, 2013, 05:42:01 pm »

Which you can get 80% of the benefit of with the one mic split into two channels.  I often do this with a Cajon.

I might have to get a splitter and try this next time our band "goes acoustic". Just curious, would there be much benefit using two channels on an analog board with limited outboard(I might be able to spare a comp/gate for each but probably would have to pick which channel got it)? I'm usually pretty happy with a '57 in the hole on the back pointed up at around a 45 angle, but sometimes I can't get the sound I'd like to out of it.
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Samuel Rees

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Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
« Reply #114 on: May 14, 2013, 06:39:45 pm »

Processing 'click' and 'boom' separately would be the goal in this case.

I agree, but once I accomplish that goal, the kick becomes on unit again for me. Rarely do I ride or alter that kickin / kickout throughout the night or from song to song like you are suggesting. If I do, it's unusual enough that I wouldn't mind digging through layers a bit.

@TJ - A guy I trained under for several years did that with cajon also. At a venue I often work we've usually got plenty of setup time, mics, and channels so it isn't much trouble. Also, with going bands I often don't know what the kicks will sound like and having an alternative mic keeps the options open from the start without having to change mics.
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
« Reply #115 on: May 14, 2013, 07:02:05 pm »

I agree, but once I accomplish that goal, the kick becomes on unit again for me. Rarely do I ride or alter that kickin / kickout throughout the night or from song to song like you are suggesting. If I do, it's unusual enough that I wouldn't mind digging through layers a bit.

@TJ - A guy I trained under for several years did that with cajon also. At a venue I often work we've usually got plenty of setup time, mics, and channels so it isn't much trouble. Also, with going bands I often don't know what the kicks will sound like and having an alternative mic keeps the options open from the start without having to change mics.

I've noticed with our current single mic setup that sometimes the kick seems to be totally buried and I feel like I'm missing some "punch" from it. Other times, especially during some parts of songs where there's only drums and vocal, there's too much "punch" or "click" to the sound and I really just want a "thump". So that's at least one example I can think of where I'd probably change up the relationship between the two mics. But I agree that for the most part I'd keep them together. But I'd use a subgroup rather than a DCA in this case.
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Samuel Rees

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Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
« Reply #116 on: May 15, 2013, 12:48:05 am »

I've noticed with our current single mic setup that sometimes the kick seems to be totally buried and I feel like I'm missing some "punch" from it. Other times, especially during some parts of songs where there's only drums and vocal, there's too much "punch" or "click" to the sound and I really just want a "thump". So that's at least one example I can think of where I'd probably change up the relationship between the two mics. But I agree that for the most part I'd keep them together. But I'd use a subgroup rather than a DCA in this case.

What if you already have the drums going to a subgroup?

 It's all well and good, use whatever you want, especially if your intent is o put both channels into one compressor together, which definitely don't do when doing kick in and out, but you're sort of rejecting VCAs without fully understanding their distinct purpose alongside subgroups. Here is a technique I frequently employ at front of house - Dave Rat uses this technique as well and has a whole video about it: I will have drums going to a subgroup, and drums assigned to a VCA. This way I've got two controls for the drums. I'll put a compressor on the subgroup. Now if I want to turn the drums up, I raise the subgroup fader. I've got a second option though - I can raise the drum VCA. This is like raising each drum fader before going into the subgroup, in this case turning the drums up but BEFORE the compressor, driving it into the comp harder at the same time as turning it up. This allows a really crazy amount of control over compression and drum levels just on 2 faders. On my default FOH scene at my regular gig I've got one of my fader banks set as 6 subgroups and 6 VCAs paired together. VCAs are also a huge deal if you have post-fader vocal FX, as the VCA will affect those post fader sends unlike a subgroup.
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
« Reply #117 on: May 15, 2013, 01:05:56 am »

What if you already have the drums going to a subgroup?

 It's all well and good, use whatever you want, especially if your intent is o put both channels into one compressor together, which definitely don't do when doing kick in and out, but you're sort of rejecting VCAs without fully understanding their distinct purpose alongside subgroups. Here is a technique I frequently employ at front of house - Dave Rat uses this technique as well and has a whole video about it: I will have drums going to a subgroup, and drums assigned to a VCA. This way I've got two controls for the drums. I'll put a compressor on the subgroup. Now if I want to turn the drums up, I raise the subgroup fader. I've got a second option though - I can raise the drum VCA. This is like raising each drum fader before going into the subgroup, in this case turning the drums up but BEFORE the compressor, driving it into the comp harder at the same time as turning it up. This allows a really crazy amount of control over compression and drum levels just on 2 faders. On my default FOH scene at my regular gig I've got one of my fader banks set as 6 subgroups and 6 VCAs paired together. VCAs are also a huge deal if you have post-fader vocal FX, as the VCA will affect those post fader sends unlike a subgroup.

I'm not rejecting VCAs, I just don't need them. Or at least not very many of them. They have their place of course. I watched the same video by Dave talking about using VCAs to control inputs before and after a bus compressor.

I wouldn't ever put the entire drum kit into one subgroup though. I'd really be missing the ability to adjust individual elements of the kit. I prefer Dave's method of splitting the drums into kick+snare, toms, and cymbals. I'd take it one step further and put the kick and snare in separate groups.

Unfortunately a lot of consoles don't let you unlink compressors on stereo subgroups. This is one of the few things I don't like about the iLive/GLD.
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Samuel Rees

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Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
« Reply #118 on: May 15, 2013, 01:54:59 am »

I wouldn't ever put the entire drum kit into one subgroup though. I'd really be missing the ability to adjust individual elements of the kit. I prefer Dave's method of splitting the drums into kick+snare, toms, and cymbals. I'd take it one step further and put the kick and snare in separate groups.

Wouldn't ever? I'm not missing any ability to adjust individual elements of the kit. Where do I lose that ability? Dave's method is all well and good, he is obviously Dave Rat, but there is nothing wrong with a drum subgroup in live mixing. I try not to say never.
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Jason Lucas

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Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
« Reply #119 on: May 15, 2013, 10:42:01 am »

Wouldn't ever? I'm not missing any ability to adjust individual elements of the kit. Where do I lose that ability? Dave's method is all well and good, he is obviously Dave Rat, but there is nothing wrong with a drum subgroup in live mixing. I try not to say never.

I see no benefit to putting the entire kit in a group, personally. Not for live anyway.
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There are three things I hate: Harsh highs, hollow mids, and woofy bass.

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Re: Best 48+ channel analog for under $7k?
« Reply #119 on: May 15, 2013, 10:42:01 am »


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