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Author Topic: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?  (Read 77292 times)

John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #130 on: January 06, 2013, 11:53:25 am »


Here's a weird bit of hair-splitting.  Designs vs. components. 
Component selection is design.
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How many preamp designs are out there anyway?  Really not that many.
A bunch, but only a handful of practical designs that make sense to use in professional consoles. Now even less since the evolution of IC mic preamps that don't suck.

Suggestions of huge differences between mic preamps is mostly merchandising by marketers. They differ in very small ways if at all (when operated below clipping). Exotic stand alone preamps are more exotic than better.
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And components change because of suppliers, processes, and things like RoHS requirements. 
With approval by engineering. Purchasing can not be trusted to make such decisions in a vacuum since they are pretty single minded about purchase cost (not the big picture).
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And when you start looking at schematics for a living, you start to notice that almost all designs are "off the shelf", generally simple variations on circuits found in the application notes for various parts.
Cough.. some design engineers might disagree with that characterization.  8) I recall when I managed an engineering design group being constantly pressured by my boss to not reinvent any wheels, while as an engineer I have never seen a design that couldn't be improved, however narrowly. Smart design management is to only use the best of the new when it is actually better, or equivalent while cheaper. 

I wasn't hired for my ability to follow application notes. While philosophically inclined toward creativity in design, it is not worth doing something differently just to be different, if it isn't demonstrably better, (you risk an undiscovered flaw that can bite you later). While I have seen the same function executed differently in circuitry by a competitor to get around one of my patents.  :o 
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Going back to Fender vs. Marshall amps there's maybe a 5-10% difference between the two, both of which are obviously built around the original vacuum tube design books from the manufacturers.
Not to veer off topic, but with high impedance tube designs like guitar amps, there can be significant differences caused by the physical layout, from crosstalk between high impedance stages contributing to the similar schematic designs sounding quite different in practice (with even more variables involved that I didn't list). 
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Really I don't mind people having opinions about sound, it's what makes things interesting.  But please don't latch onto marketing terms or make up your own pseudoscientific explanations for why you might hear a difference.
Amen brotha.....

JR
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Stuart Pendleton

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #131 on: January 06, 2013, 12:12:59 pm »

...and there are times when something like a StudioLive is a sensible solution.  In no way does an LS9 have a better interface.

SL has a great interface?  :o

When one band I worked regularly with decided to buy and outfit their own stage trailer, they thought a SL was a great solution and wanted to make my life easy so I didn't have to do anything but show up and run sound for the same rate I had gotten using all my own gear. I did it a number of times, and decided the SL was so great I would buy an 01v96 for THEIR trailer and leave it installed so I didn't have to experience the wonderful SL.

I have  a rack full of Presonus D8 preamps for my 01v96's. D8s are nothing special. I bought them because they were cheap. If I had the cash, I would have been a rackful of Yamaha preamps.

Frankly, I wouldn't trade my several years old 01v96's even for SL24s new in the box.
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Scott Helmke

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #132 on: January 06, 2013, 12:21:40 pm »

I wasn't hired for my ability to follow application notes. While philosophically inclined toward creativity in design, it is not worth doing something differently just to be different, if it isn't demonstrably better, (you risk an undiscovered flaw that can bite you later). While I have seen the same function executed differently in circuitry by a competitor to get around one of my patents.  :o

No real arguing with you on those points.  But I think most people (ie non-engineers) tend to look at all these different products and manufacturers, and conclude that the different mic preamps (or whatever) are as different from each other as books in the library, that each company is like an author producing totally different content.

But I would argue that all the different mic preamps are as different from each other as, say, all the romance novels in the library are different from each other.  Which is to say that there are a lot of trivial variations on a rather limited set of basic themes.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #133 on: January 06, 2013, 12:23:30 pm »

No real arguing with you on those points.  But I think most people (ie non-engineers) tend to look at all these different products and manufacturers, and conclude that the different mic preamps (or whatever) are as different from each other as books in the library, that each company is like an author producing totally different content.

But I would argue that all the different mic preamps are as different from each other as, say, all the romance novels in the library are different from each other.  Which is to say that there are a lot of trivial variations on a rather limited set of basic themes.

Perhaps Mr. Baron will be impressed with the Prosounus (intentional misspelling) Harlequin Pre-Mance microphone preamps. ;)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2013, 12:30:10 pm by Tim McCulloch »
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Doug Fowler

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #134 on: January 06, 2013, 12:40:39 pm »

When Electro-Voice broke new ground with RMD technology with their X-Array systems in 1997, they quickly applied that to all their lines of loudspeakers. 

Topic swerve:  Wasn't X-Array released before "Ring Mode Decoupling"?  And, when users complained, they glued foam into various places to "address" it?  I would hardly call this breaking new ground....

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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #135 on: January 06, 2013, 12:43:45 pm »

No real arguing with you on those points.  But I think most people (ie non-engineers) tend to look at all these different products and manufacturers, and conclude that the different mic preamps (or whatever) are as different from each other as books in the library, that each company is like an author producing totally different content.

But I would argue that all the different mic preamps are as different from each other as, say, all the romance novels in the library are different from each other.  Which is to say that there are a lot of trivial variations on a rather limited set of basic themes.

Agreed... it is difficult to convey decades of (our) experience to laymen with a few simple statements, so there is a temptation to overstate the differences in our otherwise similar viewpoints.

That's life on the Internet highway, and web forum exchanges.

JR
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kristianjohnsen

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #136 on: January 06, 2013, 03:17:04 pm »

"CLS-9", where are you!?

A cascaded CL3 and CL5 seems pretty sweet, too :)

I initially said that Yamaha should have made the CL consoles' names fit better with the "old M7CL". 

I think M1CL, M3CL and M9CL would have been good names...
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Jim Baron

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #137 on: January 06, 2013, 03:51:05 pm »

To Jim:
If a Yamaha console is good enough for the Rolling Stones, it's good enough for me!
http://www.audioprointernational.com/news/read/the-rolling-stones-rely-on-clair-global-for-50-counting-gigs/05435

That reminds me of a tour the Stones did around 2002, and I saw them doing a stadium. There was an EV X-Line system at the front and XLC's for delay.  Out there was a B-Stage, where they played about 7 songs facing the far end of the stadium.  Later I learned that the main consoles for FOH and monitors were Midas, I believe Heritage series.  But for the B-Stage, they selected a Mackie 1604.  The Stones rocked it, and guess what? People still applauded. There could have been some audio snobs involved who might have liked to have seen another Midas there, but in the end, the professional choice is not always the high end choice--it is ultimately the sensible choice.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #138 on: January 06, 2013, 04:17:40 pm »

That reminds me of a tour the Stones did around 2002, and I saw them doing a stadium. There was an EV X-Line system at the front and XLC's for delay.  Out there was a B-Stage, where they played about 7 songs facing the far end of the stadium.  Later I learned that the main consoles for FOH and monitors were Midas, I believe Heritage series.  But for the B-Stage, they selected a Mackie 1604.  The Stones rocked it, and guess what? People still applauded. There could have been some audio snobs involved who might have liked to have seen another Midas there, but in the end, the professional choice is not always the high end choice--it is ultimately the sensible choice.

Which city/venue was that?
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Jim Baron

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #139 on: January 06, 2013, 04:19:36 pm »

Which city/venue was that?

I saw them at Giants Stadium in New Jersey, but apparently that was the rig they travelled with, according to Mix Magazine.
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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #139 on: January 06, 2013, 04:19:36 pm »


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