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Author Topic: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?  (Read 77315 times)

Jim McKeveny

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #60 on: December 31, 2012, 02:10:54 pm »

But we haven't had such hack in the physical layout of professional consoles since TAPCO days.

Additional screen and metal costs should be de minimus in this price range especially for a manufacturer of repute, and going skinny on the external presentation tosses up red flags regarding internal diligence.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 02:15:53 pm by Jim McKeveny »
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Scott Helmke

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #61 on: December 31, 2012, 06:07:50 pm »

But we haven't had such hack in the physical layout of professional consoles since TAPCO days.

Additional screen and metal costs should be de minimus in this price range especially for a manufacturer of repute, and going skinny on the external presentation tosses up red flags regarding internal diligence.

It is a little odd.

But in six years you're the first person I've ever heard complain about it.
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Jim McKeveny

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #62 on: December 31, 2012, 06:36:23 pm »

It is a little odd.

But in six years you're the first person I've ever heard complain about it.

Not a complaint. An observation. I have thousands of hours, maybe tens of thousands, on Yamaha products: PM400, PM 180, PM430, MQ1602, MC2404, MC2404II, MC2408, PM1000, PM2000, PM4000, PM4000M, PM1D, 5D, etc,etc. That is just consoles. P2200 Amps, crossovers, EQs, SPX FX. All rock-solid & all with their Yami quirks. Still, somehow, the M7CL-48 strikes me as out-of-character for Yamaha.

I am not the only one I have encountered to express this sentiment.



« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 10:11:39 am by Jim McKeveny »
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John Roberts {JR}

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #63 on: December 31, 2012, 10:05:00 pm »

But we haven't had such hack in the physical layout of professional consoles since TAPCO days.


 ;D ;D ;D  I remember borrowing a small plastic POS to use in a trade show booth back in the early '80s... I literally had to take the back off it and trace out the connections to figure out how to get some signal through it... 

JR
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Keith Broughton

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #64 on: January 01, 2013, 08:31:33 am »

So the layout of the M7 is "hack" but the layer upon layer of pages in the acres of buttons on the right side of the PM5D is OK?!?
And, no touch screen!
Never even considered the M7 layout as odd.
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Jim McKeveny

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #65 on: January 01, 2013, 10:00:22 am »

but the layer upon layer of pages in the acres of buttons on the right side of the PM5D is OK?!?
And, no touch screen

5D is old enough that the lack of touchscreen gets a pass.

Mechanical (screen support, add-on meter bridge, channel extender block on M7CL-48) design of M7 is a throwback IMO.
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Keith Broughton

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #66 on: January 01, 2013, 04:03:20 pm »

Quote
5D is old enough that the lack of touchscreen gets a pass.
Fair enough.
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Peter Morris

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #67 on: January 02, 2013, 07:49:08 am »

I guess you could say I don't think so, because I believe the differences in mix engines is limited to being way below perceptibility. It's only rounding errors and they are far and away below any hearing threshold or what any other piece of the signal chain is capable of reproducing. Remember you have 288 dB dynamic range even with just 48 bits. Unless of course some manufacturer claimed to be using something other than a perfectly simple straight ahead linear math engine, but I haven't heard anyone claim this.

This has also been debated ad nauseum in the studio world between DAW mix engines and the discussion follows exactly the same pattern as discussions about the sonic benefits of magic sound crystals, ceramic thingies that lift your cables off the floor and what have you in hi-fi woo circles; many people claiming all sorts of things, even night-and-day differences, but zero hard evidence. Occam's razor wins for me until someone demonstrates this in and actual blind test with statistical significance.

Yes but, an M7 is not 48 bits in or out. A typical input signal will use more like 16 bits out of the available 24. That input signal is then multiplied/divided, EQed & compressed … more mathematics, assigned to a VCA and multiplied again, added to a bunch of other signals. The signal path is changed to 48 bits at some point, the signal is then modified by a GEQ and compressor and scaled back to 24 bits.
If you lose a little bit each time it may well become audible, add to that less than perfect AD & DA’s and some ordinary Mic preamps…. it all adds up.

I have AB-ed an M7 directly with an iLive and an iLive with a Pro 2. The Midas sound great, the iLive also sounds very very good, the M7 is awful, and to my ear the M7 seems to get worse on more complicated mixes.

So I’m sticking with my … I wasn’t there comment  :)
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Chris Johnson [UK]

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #68 on: January 02, 2013, 10:26:56 am »

I see where you are coming from Peter, and it is certainly true that the 'mixing math' involved in modern consoles, including all the emulation of analog hardware thats happening with modern dynamics and other plugin processors, is not simple.

However, in all my testing of consoles, and I've used nearly everything on the market, the differences all but evaporate once you eliminate the Pre-A/D and D/A stages. IE: AES in and AES out, the differences become much harder to detect.

Part of this is a cost thing. I think M7s and LS9s are often judged harshly because they are always being compared to much newer products. An M7 is what, 8 years old this year? Not to mention they were built to a budget.

The other part is a preference thing though. Digico pride themselves on having clean, uncoloured analog circuitry, Midas have their 'sound', etc... So some of these differences are designed in.

There is no doubt though, that I have heard (and I'd like to think mixed) plenty of great audio on M7s, and that 5Ds and 1Ds (consoles costing much much more) sound good by todays standards, and that the console is the least of your worries. Give me great mics, great sources, and a great system and a Mixwizard, and we'll be ok :D
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John Chiara

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #69 on: January 02, 2013, 10:57:05 am »

I see where you are coming from Peter, and it is certainly true that the 'mixing math' involved in modern consoles, including all the emulation of analog hardware thats happening with modern dynamics and other plugin processors, is not simple.

However, in all my testing of consoles, and I've used nearly everything on the market, the differences all but evaporate once you eliminate the Pre-A/D and D/A stages. IE: AES in and AES out, the differences become much harder to detect.

Part of this is a cost thing. I think M7s and LS9s are often judged harshly because they are always being compared to much newer products. An M7 is what, 8 years old this year? Not to mention they were built to a budget.

The other part is a preference thing though. Digico pride themselves on having clean, uncoloured analog circuitry, Midas have their 'sound', etc... So some of these differences are designed in.

There is no doubt though, that I have heard (and I'd like to think mixed) plenty of great audio on M7s, and that 5Ds and 1Ds (consoles costing much much more) sound good by todays standards, and that the console is the least of your worries. Give me great mics, great sources, and a great system and a Mixwizard, and we'll be ok :D

So after reading this I would conclude that my X32... With the fine sounding preamps that I have verified with many multitrack recordings, out thought the AES digital out... Should be a better sounding console than an LS9...all other things being equal.
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ProSoundWeb Community

Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #69 on: January 02, 2013, 10:57:05 am »


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