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Author Topic: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?  (Read 77688 times)

Riley Casey

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #50 on: December 30, 2012, 07:48:20 pm »

Within our inventory I have often used the AES output of the M7 to drive the AES input of a BSS 366 DSP and the difference is quite noticeable. Less noticeable is doing the same signal connection with a PM5D.  I have used a Metric Halo DSP as an output convertor for the LS9s utilizing the ADAT outputs with again noticeable improvement .  The Metric Halo and the BSS are devices designed years before the lower end Yamaha digital consoles and yet they have better convertors.  I don't doubt the technology moves on but I also have clear evidence  that more money can buy better performance.  Just as it can buy more snake oil.  :P   On the other hand I don't hear any improvement when anyone breaks out their boutique clock to run my PM5D from so to each his own.


While I have no beef with that statement (and I don't know if you only meant DA or also AD?) I just can't help thinking that with the degree of negativity one finds on the web, regarding the converters on the LS9 and M7CL and considering that they were released in...what..2005?..and the developments in digital electronics since then - it's amazing that the digital equipment in the 80s even passed sound at all.

I consider this subject very much one of hype (which would also be my answer to the OP's question). Some measure of truth in a storm of online hype.

Caleb Dueck

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #51 on: December 30, 2012, 07:51:49 pm »

I'd trust the Rane to have good converters, but it's also possible that something in the cabling, connection or the converters in the Rane were the differentiator.  It's at least possible.  Can't count the number of times I've done something like that only to think later of what might also have explained what I was hearing.

If it were anything but new cables, and if that experience were the 'odd man out' compared to other times, I would have discounted it as well. 

When we compared consoles side by side (different time than above), it was AE6100 to XLR in, all processing bypassed, XLR out to Lab.Gruppen to Danley something or other main speaker.  Physically swapped the input and output cables, purposefully kept preamps from near clip and rode fader to keep perceived quality due to volume effect away.  Didn't have a Yamaha at the time, would have been fun to compare M7/LS9 to the Presonus.  The iLive was very warm (highs slightly rolled off?  Could be an EQ thing) while the Roland M480 seemed almost scooped.  The Presonus was awful, roughly similar to what I remember from Yamaha. 

If others in the area want to get together and have some consoles, we could probably do something similar, with Midas, Digico, Yamaha, iLive, Roland, X32, etc.  I'm sure there are Profile, Vi6, and other common options here too.  Danley or L'Acoustics speakers, installed/tuned. 
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Peter Morris

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #52 on: December 30, 2012, 07:53:06 pm »

That thread is very interesting, because it shows us how little forums posts can sometimes be trusted. This guy is certain that he's hearing this profound difference between mix engines..... Total BS. Sorry, but that's my opinion. This guy is listening with everything but his ears.

"..and thanks for the info, it had to be fixed point really..." ......puuhleeaze...

At least these guys tried to test the mix engine performance by comparing the sound quality of a multi-channel mix on different consoles.  I can’t find anybody else that has done that. They also tried to directly compare the quality of compressors.

I wasn’t there so I can’t comment, but I do think trying to test the quality or the compromises made in the mix engine, is worthwhile.
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Samuel Rees

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Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #53 on: December 30, 2012, 08:13:30 pm »

I bet Yamaha could put out a killer LS9 replacement these days. I'm sort of imagining a Yamaha 'GLD' / Baby CL.
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Frederik Rosenkjær

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2012, 03:05:11 am »

I wasn’t there so I can’t comment, but I do think trying to test the quality or the compromises made in the mix engine, is worthwhile.

I guess you could say I don't think so, because I believe the differences in mix engines is limited to being way below perceptibility. It's only rounding errors and they are far and away below any hearing threshold or what any other piece of the signal chain is capable of reproducing. Remember you have 288 dB dynamic range even with just 48 bits. Unless of course some manufacturer claimed to be using something other than a perfectly simple straight ahead linear math engine, but I haven't heard anyone claim this.

This has also been debated ad nauseum in the studio world between DAW mix engines and the discussion follows exactly the same pattern as discussions about the sonic benefits of magic sound crystals, ceramic thingies that lift your cables off the floor and what have you in hi-fi woo circles; many people claiming all sorts of things, even night-and-day differences, but zero hard evidence. Occam's razor wins for me until someone demonstrates this in and actual blind test with statistical significance.
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Frederik Rosenkjær

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2012, 03:10:56 am »

If others in the area want to get together and have some consoles, we could probably do something similar, with Midas, Digico, Yamaha, iLive, Roland, X32, etc.  I'm sure there are Profile, Vi6, and other common options here too.  Danley or L'Acoustics speakers, installed/tuned.

Being in Europe I can only send my sympathy and encouragement for such an experiment, but let me say up front before the fact that in my view it absolutely has to be done properly blinded with several repetitions if you want to be able to draw any serious conclusions from it. It's a lot of hard work and not as fun as just a casual test.
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Chris Johnson [UK]

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #56 on: December 31, 2012, 07:40:55 am »

Just to clarify a point or two.  Since the LS9 has no AES i/o were you using an AES MY card to get in and out of the matrix / back up console or what else am I missing here?  If the LS9 was the matrix mixer did that make it the final driver stage to the amps?  Jus trying to understand how the A/B element worked here.

Hi Riley,

Yes, AES MY Card provided the AES input from mix console, and AES outputs to amps.

Now, If you know anything about how yamaha consoles work, you'll know that what hits the MY card slot header connector, is the same audio path as what hits the D/A or A/D convertors. The difference is just whats on the card. Unsurprisingly, the AES card is pretty straightforward, since the MY card slot provides digital audio, all the AES card is doing is turning that into discrete AES connections on a Dsub.

So, this setup allowed me to instantaneously switch between the digital/analog inputs and digital/analog outputs. That means that in either case, the signal is passing through the same processing engine, same internal signal path, but I can bypass either the preamp & a/d or d/a section
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Keith Broughton

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #57 on: December 31, 2012, 08:02:53 am »

Depends on if you jump out of bed every morning because you love your job, or if you drag your ass out of bed to go to work because you need the pay check.
I do love my job but if the productions are not cost effective, I won't have a job!
Don't get me wrong. I enjoy getting the best sound possible but sometimes we agonize over "the best sounding XYZ..." when we are the only one hearing the difference.
It's hard to get the production to spend money on what is not seen, or heard, to be necessary.
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Jim McKeveny

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #58 on: December 31, 2012, 10:28:30 am »

There are observably fewer complaints about 1D/5D sound. It appears that the Yami design team from those consoles was not involved with the M7. (I've not much personal exposure to LS9).

To wit:

Why does the lighted white channel chiclet on PM consoles indicate "mute", but on M Series indicates "on"?

Why the kluge/Rube Goldberg channel 33-48 add-on the M7CL-48? Wouldn't channels 1-24 on top (or bottom) level make more sense to the less-sophisticated (originally church) target buyer?

If a console has odd compromises on the user surface, what lies beneath? If the M7 came out of a small manufacturer of another name it would not get a second look or listen.
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Mac Kerr

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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #59 on: December 31, 2012, 12:29:32 pm »

Why the kluge/Rube Goldberg channel 33-48 add-on the M7CL-48? Wouldn't channels 1-24 on top (or bottom) level make more sense to the less-sophisticated (originally church) target buyer?

Because it is an add on. The left side is an M7/32, the right side is the add on to make it a 48 input console.

Mac
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Re: Why no love for the 'sound' of Yamaha digital consoles?
« Reply #59 on: December 31, 2012, 12:29:32 pm »


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