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Author Topic: Which 4 dual 18 reflex cabinets?  (Read 12085 times)

Mark J Snyder

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Which 4 dual 18 reflex cabinets?
« on: December 19, 2012, 04:45:13 am »

Ok so after going over everything and talking about ideas with ppl I will be working with I've come up with a criteria that should make my decision about a system fairly limited it looks.

1 - Must be dual 18 reflex cabinets
2 - Runs off of one 20A preferably and if not then two 20A.  No 30A.
3 - Still in production.
4 - $14,000 budget for speakers and amps.

Some top picks I've seen so far:
DB Tech S20
RCF TTS36a   - If they can be found at that price point.

EAW SB1000z  - Still sticking this one in here cause it's low power requirement.  I could keep and use a Powersoft Digam5000 to power them well.

JBL STX828s

Bold 218  - Is the wild card - It's wild card status is due to it not being a widely recognised name and a new company

Thought's on these and any others I could look at would be greatly appreciated.  The system will get alot of bass heavy EDM as well as live rock and jam bands.  Probably more so the DJ stuff, tho I'm trying to break out of that more.

Thanks -Mark
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Frederik RosenkjŠr

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Re: Which 4 dual 18 reflex cabinets?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2012, 07:44:01 am »


1 - Must be dual 18 reflex cabinets

Just curious: why?
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Which 4 dual 18 reflex cabinets?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2012, 07:53:33 am »

Ok so after going over everything and talking about ideas with ppl I will be working with I've come up with a criteria that should make my decision about a system fairly limited it looks.

1 - Must be dual 18 reflex cabinets
2 - Runs off of one 20A preferably and if not then two 20A.  No 30A.
3 - Still in production.
4 - $14,000 budget for speakers and amps.

Some top picks I've seen so far:
DB Tech S20
RCF TTS36a   - If they can be found at that price point.

EAW SB1000z  - Still sticking this one in here cause it's low power requirement.  I could keep and use a Powersoft Digam5000 to power them well.

JBL STX828s

Bold 218  - Is the wild card - It's wild card status is due to it not being a widely recognised name and a new company

Thought's on these and any others I could look at would be greatly appreciated.  The system will get alot of bass heavy EDM as well as live rock and jam bands.  Probably more so the DJ stuff, tho I'm trying to break out of that more.

Thanks -Mark
You are looking at this the wrong way.  It sounds like you are saying-I need a car that has 300 HP.  Without looking at your real needs.  How much carrying capacity do you need?  Are you carrying around 6 kids?  Are you racing on the weekends and so forth.  A single spec (300HP or 2x18")) doesn't give any useful information.

What you SHOULD be asking is "What subs do you recommend that I can get amps and speakers for that will produce a certain SPL at a certain freq."  And does sound quality count?  Just because it is loud-does it produce the "sound" that you are looking for?

You have a budget (at least it is a decent size for the amount of current you plan on using)-but do not state how loud or how low it needs to go.

You say EDM, therefore I would recommend something that gets to 30 or 35Hz at a minimum- SOLID. NOT just a simple number on a spec sheet.  Look at the ACTUAL response curves and you will find that many cabinets that state -3dB @35Hz are actually a lot lower than that (often as much as -10dB at that freq).

Why does it have to be a 2x18" sub?  What if something else could give you better performance with a different size driver?  Is there something "magical" about a 2x18" that you must have?

You also mention being able to run off of a particular power circuit.  How many you can run GREATLY depends on the type of music-amount of compression used and so forth.

You can run more cabinets off of a single outlet doing rock than you can EDM.

It is also not so much "how many can you run" but what SPL can you achieve off of a single circuit. 

In order to get something that will "fill your needs", you need to look a bit harder at your "real" needs and don't limit yourself to just the driver size and quantity.



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Ivan Beaver
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gary makovsky

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Re: Which 4 dual 18 reflex cabinets?
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2012, 10:28:32 am »


1 - Must be dual 18 reflex cabinets


we recently rented 4 Martin WS218x for a high profile show.  The specs are impressive at 105 sensitivity.  they are using the same B&C 18 driver as our Xyons.  Worth checking into if you are set on reflex cabs... and they rattled my teeth as well... smaart was showing a solid 35Hz and the powersofts had best impulse.
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duane massey

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Re: Which 4 dual 18 reflex cabinets?
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2012, 10:32:32 am »

As usual, Ivan, you pretty much nailed everything.
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Duane Massey
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Marjan Milosevic

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Re: Which 4 dual 18 reflex cabinets?
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2012, 11:13:16 am »

we recently rented 4 Martin WS218x for a high profile show.  The specs are impressive at 105 sensitivity.  they are using the same B&C 18 driver as our Xyons.  Worth checking into if you are set on reflex cabs... and they rattled my teeth as well... smaart was showing a solid 35Hz and the powersofts had best impulse.

105db out of any double 18 is a pure fiction.

Ivan Beaver

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Re: Which 4 dual 18 reflex cabinets?
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2012, 01:24:58 pm »

105db out of any double 18 is a pure fiction.
Depends on what freq you are talking about.

I know one famous manufacturer who claims 108dB from a front loaded 2x18".  Of course that is around 1800Hz, so exactly not the "sub or bass" range, but it IS truthful.

The cabinet WILL produce that SPL-just not in a range that you want to use it.  In the bass it is quite a bit lower.

And my car gets 90 mile per gallon easily.  As long as I am going down a long hill and don't use the accelerator. 

It all depends on where the data comes from-how it is used by the marketing dept and so forth.
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Ivan Beaver
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Mark J Snyder

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Re: Which 4 dual 18 reflex cabinets?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2012, 01:25:34 pm »

You are looking at this the wrong way.  It sounds like you are saying-I need a car that has 300 HP.  Without looking at your real needs.  How much carrying capacity do you need?  Are you carrying around 6 kids?  Are you racing on the weekends and so forth.  A single spec (300HP or 2x18")) doesn't give any useful information.

What you SHOULD be asking is "What subs do you recommend that I can get amps and speakers for that will produce a certain SPL at a certain freq."  And does sound quality count?  Just because it is loud-does it produce the "sound" that you are looking for?

You have a budget (at least it is a decent size for the amount of current you plan on using)-but do not state how loud or how low it needs to go.

You say EDM, therefore I would recommend something that gets to 30 or 35Hz at a minimum- SOLID. NOT just a simple number on a spec sheet.  Look at the ACTUAL response curves and you will find that many cabinets that state -3dB @35Hz are actually a lot lower than that (often as much as -10dB at that freq).

Why does it have to be a 2x18" sub?  What if something else could give you better performance with a different size driver?  Is there something "magical" about a 2x18" that you must have?

You also mention being able to run off of a particular power circuit.  How many you can run GREATLY depends on the type of music-amount of compression used and so forth.

You can run more cabinets off of a single outlet doing rock than you can EDM.

It is also not so much "how many can you run" but what SPL can you achieve off of a single circuit. 

In order to get something that will "fill your needs", you need to look a bit harder at your "real" needs and don't limit yourself to just the driver size and quantity.

I can't say what SPL at a certain freq because I just don't know how I'd come up with a figure like that.  Maybe you can help me figure that out first?  I gave the Xyon as a target for SPL and Yes sound quality is important,  more so than SPL I'd say but both are important of course.

How low?  Again I don't have any particular number in mind 30-35Hz I certainly agree on that.  I had 4 LA400's and tho not super loud I was constantly told by ppl it was the lowest sounding system they had heard.  If I could get the same performance but with more SPL I'd be in a good spot.  I used EAW's reccomended processor settings and their UX8800.  HPF is 30Hz 12db BW.

I don't know what else to tell you guys other than give examples of what's being used by others in my area.

Why a dual 18 reflex?  Well I would like to be able to combine with other cabinets myself and friends have to take on bigger rooms.  I have 4 SB850's (old shallow ones) for example.  Yes this isn't nessissarily going to sound so good but it's what it takes to get the job done sometimes and for what those gigs are nobody is going to complain about sound quality anyways. 

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Ivan Beaver

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Re: Which 4 dual 18 reflex cabinets?
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2012, 04:02:11 pm »

I can't say what SPL at a certain freq because I just don't know how I'd come up with a figure like that.  Maybe you can help me figure that out first?  I gave the Xyon as a target for SPL and Yes sound quality is important,  more so than SPL I'd say but both are important of course.

How low?  Again I don't have any particular number in mind 30-35Hz I certainly agree on that.  I had 4 LA400's and tho not super loud I was constantly told by ppl it was the lowest sounding system they had heard.  If I could get the same performance but with more SPL I'd be in a good spot.  I used EAW's reccomended processor settings and their UX8800.  HPF is 30Hz 12db BW.

I don't know what else to tell you guys other than give examples of what's being used by others in my area.

Why a dual 18 reflex?  Well I would like to be able to combine with other cabinets myself and friends have to take on bigger rooms.  I have 4 SB850's (old shallow ones) for example.  Yes this isn't nessissarily going to sound so good but it's what it takes to get the job done sometimes and for what those gigs are nobody is going to complain about sound quality anyways.
Of the products you listed-only the SB850 has any actual freq response graphs.  And to get an idea of what the real freq response is-you need to look at the unprocessed response-NOT the processed response. 

Any sub can appear to go lower if you boost the low end.  But you have to subtract that level from the max output.

You might try contacting the manufacturers to see if you can get a copy of the unprocessed freq response of the cabinets you are interested in.
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Ivan Beaver
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Mark J Snyder

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Re: Which 4 dual 18 reflex cabinets?
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2012, 04:52:58 pm »

Of the products you listed-only the SB850 has any actual freq response graphs.  And to get an idea of what the real freq response is-you need to look at the unprocessed response-NOT the processed response. 

Any sub can appear to go lower if you boost the low end.  But you have to subtract that level from the max output.

You might try contacting the manufacturers to see if you can get a copy of the unprocessed freq response of the cabinets you are interested in.

Man I'm not saying your trying to do me wrong or anything but your answers I feel are just making this over complicated or getting me nowhere.  You said look at graphs and not just numbers and now say the graphs are wrong to look at unless I request the unprocessed ones.  You say to come up with a target spl at a certain freq and that I may not nessisarily need overly powerful amps to achieve this.  I get that, but being this a touring system I may not OWN 135db at 35Hz or whatever outside when I do indoors at a medium sized venue.  Do I need amps capable of driving to the limits?  No but it's better to have and turn down then not have when it may be needed.  I tend to ignore numbers almost completely and go with opinions from ppl who have used the gear and how it compares because the numbers are just that only numbers that often reflect nothing in the real world. 

Above and beyond all this my buddy who's helping me with this system is a Fullsail graduate and has been the Engineer on many large rigs one of his favorites being 32 KF850's per side.  Now he's not so into going over gear like this that's why I came here but he keeps saying it doesn't matter so much what the system is capable of producing but rather how he will make it sound perceptively louder no matter what I buy.
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Re: Which 4 dual 18 reflex cabinets?
┬ź Reply #9 on: December 19, 2012, 04:52:58 pm ┬╗


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