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Author Topic: New Sound Board and Wireless Mics for Church  (Read 16028 times)

Tommy Peel

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Re: New Sound Board and Wireless Mics for Church
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2012, 10:43:42 am »

It does - sort of.  Like most digital consoles you assign Inputs to the associated Channels on the mixer, however the X32 does this in multiple channel groups, groups of 8 for normal channels and 4 for aux returns.  For example, you could assign Input 1 on the console to Channel 1, 9, 17 or 25, but Input 2 would correspondingly be assigned to Channel 2, 10, 18 or 26, Input 3 would be Channel 3, 11, 19 or 27 and so on for the first 8 Inputs.  Similarly, FireWire/USB Inputs 1 and 2 could be assigned to Channels 25 and 26, but FireWire/USB Inputs 3 through 8 would then also have to be assigned to Channels 27 through 32.  The aux returns also have to be the first 4 related inputs, e.g. Inputs 1-4 on any S16 stage box.  So there is an ability to assign Inputs to Channels but only within the limitations of the 'block' assignments and not on an individual channel basis.
Thanks for the info, good to know.
What would you consider defining being "worth it"?  If it was not worth it to some people then nobody would be buying those products while if it was worth it to everyone then they would all be buying those and there would be a limited market for lower cost mixers.  The fact that there is a market for both suggests that it can vary depending on the situation.

True, I doubt that our situation warrants a console more expensive than a x32. If they weren't trying to get something that would let them "grow" I'd probably be recommending a MixWiz or a GL2400, but the x32, or similar, would be a better option.
On the wireless microphones, how many you would be purchasing and how many (and what models) may already exist?  Are you looking for all handheld or all bodypack or some mix?  Do you have a preference on the microphone or capsule?
They already have a low end Shure lapel mic and doubt they'll be getting another one of those; I can't see us needing more mics like that. I don't know how many they're looking at geting right now; I'd estimate at least 1-2 and no more that 4-5. As far as capsules go they'll need something cardioid; they have a lot of singers(not singing at the same time) with less than good mic technique. They have a couple of SM58s and a couple of similar non-Shure mics right now(maybe a Peavey and an Audio-Technica?). I imagine that almost any decent wireless system is going to have better mics than what they have now.
If you are looking at more than a couple of systems you may want to consider spending a bit more and looking at accessories such as antenna distribution.  You'd have to probably go up closer to the $500 to $700+ range per system to get into the Sennheiser ew100 or Shure SLX/ULX series that might be recommended.
As far as antenna distribution with wireless equipment; I'm unfamiliar with it. I'm guessing it has to do with reducing interference between the various receivers. How important is it and how many systems can be used in the same area without it? How much does it add to the cost of a wireless system(s).
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brian maddox

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Re: New Sound Board and Wireless Mics for Church
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2012, 10:51:47 am »

It does - sort of.  Like most digital consoles you assign Inputs to the associated Channels on the mixer, however the X32 does this in multiple channel groups, groups of 8 for normal channels and 4 for aux returns.  For example, you could assign Input 1 on the console to Channel 1, 9, 17 or 25, but Input 2 would correspondingly be assigned to Channel 2, 10, 18 or 26, Input 3 would be Channel 3, 11, 19 or 27 and so on for the first 8 Inputs.  Similarly, FireWire/USB Inputs 1 and 2 could be assigned to Channels 25 and 26, but FireWire/USB Inputs 3 through 8 would then also have to be assigned to Channels 27 through 32.  The aux returns also have to be the first 4 related inputs, e.g. Inputs 1-4 on any S16 stage box.  So there is an ability to assign Inputs to Channels but only within the limitations of the 'block' assignments and not on an individual channel basis.

actually, this isn't quite true.  there is a 'block of 8' limitation.  but it concerns where your physical inputs come from.  you have to decide in blocks of 8 whether you want things to come into the desk via the local inputs, the AES50, the firewire, etc.  and you can only bring in 36 physical inputs [32 regular channels plus 4 aux's].  However, once you've made those choices, inputs can be Freely Assigned to whatever channel you choose.  so it is entirely possible to have channel 1 be local analog input 1, and channel 2 be AES50 A input 1 etc.

in practice, i've found the block of 8 thing an annoyance, but only a minor one.  if you're trying to milk every last channel out of the desk and you have a mixture of stage boxes and other sources, you might have a problem.  but if you plan accordingly, it can usually be managed.
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Jared Koopman

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Re: New Sound Board and Wireless Mics for Church
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2012, 12:12:40 pm »

actually, this isn't quite true.  there is a 'block of 8' limitation.  but it concerns where your physical inputs come from.  you have to decide in blocks of 8 whether you want things to come into the desk via the local inputs, the AES50, the firewire, etc.  and you can only bring in 36 physical inputs [32 regular channels plus 4 aux's].  However, once you've made those choices, inputs can be Freely Assigned to whatever channel you choose.  so it is entirely possible to have channel 1 be local analog input 1, and channel 2 be AES50 A input 1 etc.

in practice, i've found the block of 8 thing an annoyance, but only a minor one.  if you're trying to milk every last channel out of the desk and you have a mixture of stage boxes and other sources, you might have a problem.  but if you plan accordingly, it can usually be managed.

This is true. You can assign any channel to any input. The blocks of 8 refers only to the physical patching.

The blocks of 8 patching really only is an issue if you are using the s16's. For example, say you have 2 S16s on stage but are only using 17 of the available 32 inputs. If you plug them into random inputs (1, 5, 10, 12, 16, 24, 32, etc) you will "use up" all of your available 32 channels in the mixer due to the patching in blocks of 8. But if you consolidate the inputs into the 8 block patterns, you can then free up either 8 local inputs or 8 inputs at some other location with another s16. So it does require you to plan out your inputs.

But again, once your inputs are patched, you can use any input source for any channel.

Hope that makes sense.

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Frank DeWitt

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Re: New Sound Board and Wireless Mics for Church
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2012, 12:53:25 pm »

The x32 has 32 mic pre's built in so you can play right into your current snake system. Or you can add the s16 digital snake boxes  if you want to ditch the copper.

Or you might be able to get 24 channels of sac for that price if you don't mint shopping used parts and having a computer based rig.

But for under 5k hard to beat what the x32 offers.

Jared

SAC would give you the 24 ch and 24 outs for IEM use and you would have the money to get personal mixers for the WT, and a remote tablet or even a remote tablet with real faders on the floor for a remote FOH also it could be expanded to 72 ch and as big a control surface as you want as you grow.

Like all digital mixers, it would be computer based.
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Tommy Peel

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Re: New Sound Board and Wireless Mics for Church
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2012, 01:12:47 pm »

SAC would give you the 24 ch and 24 outs for IEM use and you would have the money to get personal mixers for the WT, and a remote tablet or even a remote tablet with real faders on the floor for a remote FOH also it could be expanded to 72 ch and as big a control surface as you want as you grow.

Like all digital mixers, it would be computer based.
Personally, I like the idea of SAC and if I was going to be running the system personally(I may sometime in the future but I don't right now) I would give it more thought. But I probably won't be using the system much beyond getting it setup and teaching the current sound guy how to use whatever new board we get. I also run sound for a band and if/when we "grow out of" our Mackie Onyx 1640 I plan on looking seriously at getting an SAC rig.

I don't think that SAC is a very good option for the church though, getting them to go to a digital board is a stretch, but I think they probably will want to go that far. Right now there isn't even a computer in the sound booth... If they go digital I'm pretty sure they'll get a computer and possibly an iPad to go with the new board.
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Frank DeWitt

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Re: New Sound Board and Wireless Mics for Church
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2012, 02:44:32 pm »


I don't think that SAC is a very good option for the church though, getting them to go to a digital board is a stretch, but I think they probably will want to go that far. Right now there isn't even a computer in the sound booth... If they go digital I'm pretty sure they'll get a computer and possibly an iPad to go with the new board.

Completely understood.  SAC does require a mental jump.  Churches know that there components that build the power part of the sound system (Speakers, amps, DSP, ETC.)  but the board is, well, it is a board.  I looked at our sound booth one morning and shook my head.  The computer list was

Video
Recording
SAC
SAC / Video backup
School Video computer
remote tablet.
3 personal I-Pads
Also two wireless routers (one for the congregation, and one for the WT control surfaces (more laptops.)


BTW When I sold the church board on SAC I showed them a block diagram of the components and I ended with "Any one of these components may ware out or become obsolete and need replacing, but I will never again come to you and say "We need a whole new board and we need it now." 
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Nick Simon

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Re: New Sound Board and Wireless Mics for Church
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2012, 03:44:23 pm »

We are getting the X32 along with the P16 and S16 interfaces...  it'll be installed within the next 8 weeks...
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Brad Weber

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Re: New Sound Board and Wireless Mics for Church
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2012, 04:31:52 pm »

Brian and Jared, thanks for the clarification.  There is a lot that is not immediately obvious with the X32.  I spent a long time trying to figure out how to patch the Aux inputs only to finally realize that you do not route Aux Inputs as part of the input patching but you can select them directly for a channel.  Or that Card inputs are assigned in the input patching in blocks of 8 whether USB or Firewire is selected for the card but you can also direct select USB L and R for each of the channels.  Speaking of that, the block of 8 patching issue can seemingly also be applicable if you use more than L/R for the USB input or use the Firewire input.
 
Nick, have you confirmed the S16 units will be available as planned?  They are apparently expected to start arriving some time next week and that may not affect an 8 week install but I don't know if that shipment will be sufficient to fulfill all of the existing orders.
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Jonathan Johnson

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Re: New Sound Board and Wireless Mics for Church
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2012, 04:41:34 pm »

I'm not qualified to advise you on the gear to get, but here are some other thoughts.

Consider placing the wireless receivers up near the stage. This will help reduce dropouts and interference. If you go this route, look for some with remote monitoring capabilities; usually this is a network interface and you run an application or web page on a computer at FOH for monitoring. Of course, that adds more cost.

For some reason, $400 seems to be a minimum price point where you start seeing better sound quality, more reliability, and less glitchiness. I think one of the big things is that most lower-priced models don't have diversity radios (two radios with separate antennas, and the receiver picks the one with the strongest signal). I don't have a lot of experience, especially recently, so there could be something out there cheaper that is adequate.

As for budget, it's unrealistic to set numbers before doing your research. Imagine if you sent your wife out to get you a package of socks and you said "don't pay over a dollar for a dozen" when you haven't shopped for socks since you moved out of your parent's basement. That's what your church board has done by giving you a "budget" and saying "do it for this" -- they may be good stewards of your church's resources, but they simply don't have the experience to understand the true cost of providing audio/visual services to their congregation. You need to understand what will meet your needs in order to develop a realistic budget. Otherwise the only brand your budget will afford is Realistic. (Does Radio Shack even sell that anymore?)

Do your research and determine the products that will meet your needs for at least the next 5-10 years. Develop a proposal with solid numbers including installation costs if professional help is needed. If the budget you have is adequate, great!

If not, bring this to your church board. Be prepared to explain how the current system is inadequate and how your proposal will meet the church's needs. Armed with that information, they can make a wise decision regarding the project. You may have an operational budget for your department and have already saved some money, but more may be available for capital expenses if you just ask. People are more willing to spend money if there's a definite plan. Don't be afraid to ask for more money if that's what you need -- it is better to be told "no" than to never ask when the answer could "yes."
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Nick Simon

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Re: New Sound Board and Wireless Mics for Church
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2012, 05:06:59 pm »

Brian and Jared, thanks for the clarification.  There is a lot that is not immediately obvious with the X32.  I spent a long time trying to figure out how to patch the Aux inputs only to finally realize that you do not route Aux Inputs as part of the input patching but you can select them directly for a channel.  Or that Card inputs are assigned in the input patching in blocks of 8 whether USB or Firewire is selected for the card but you can also direct select USB L and R for each of the channels.  Speaking of that, the block of 8 patching issue can seemingly also be applicable if you use more than L/R for the USB input or use the Firewire input.
 
Nick, have you confirmed the S16 units will be available as planned?  They are apparently expected to start arriving some time next week and that may not affect an 8 week install but I don't know if that shipment will be sufficient to fulfill all of the existing orders.

The only thing I've been told is we should be in by the first of Feb...  apparently these have been pre-ordered, or the contractor has an inside deal...
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Re: New Sound Board and Wireless Mics for Church
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2012, 05:06:59 pm »


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