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[jesseweiss]

Sorry about the downstage, upstage confusion.  I've never acted in my life!

The school is in Cross River, right next to North Salem.

The two inner speakers face out over the crowd, the two outer are at something between a 45 and 60 degree angle, essentially facing the lower part of the audience.

I'll try playing around with the EQ's on the channel strips and the mains (if there is any).  The problem, of course, is that I don't have a lot of time to play around since the dress rehearsal is Tuesday and shows start Thursday.  The director has just gotten used to not really being able to use the sound system, but I really want to get this squared away if possible.

[Kevin Maxwell]

Sorry about the downstage, upstage confusion.  I've never acted in my life!

The school is in Cross River, right next to North Salem.

The two inner speakers face out over the crowd, the two outer are at something between a 45 and 60 degree angle, essentially facing the lower part of the audience.

I'll try playing around with the EQ's on the channel strips and the mains (if there is any).  The problem, of course, is that I don't have a lot of time to play around since the dress rehearsal is Tuesday and shows start Thursday.  The director has just gotten used to not really being able to use the sound system, but I really want to get this squared away if possible.

Are you using wireless mics at all?

What is the show?

[John Halliburton]

Sorry about the downstage, upstage confusion.  I've never acted in my life!

The school is in Cross River, right next to North Salem.

The two inner speakers face out over the crowd, the two outer are at something between a 45 and 60 degree angle, essentially facing the lower part of the audience.

I'll try playing around with the EQ's on the channel strips and the mains (if there is any).  The problem, of course, is that I don't have a lot of time to play around since the dress rehearsal is Tuesday and shows start Thursday.  The director has just gotten used to not really being able to use the sound system, but I really want to get this squared away if possible.

I wouldn't jump right in on strip equalization as the main feedback reducing tool.  I'd just go thru all the mic channels, and see that the high pass filter is engaged and adjusted-I suspect even on lavs for the kids that you could set the hpf at 150-200hz, it depends if there are any baritones in the group. ;>)

I'd then make sure the channel eqs weren't set for something odd-I wouldn't expect much in the way of boosted settings, and when in doubt, I'd actually just flatten the strip eqs, and maybe roll off some highs even.

Checking the LS9 routing to see if graphic equalizers in "the virtual rack" are routed properly and affecting those four house speakers you described is kind of important, and still bugs me that they may not be set up.

Once that's been verified, a proper ringing out for better gain before feedback can be performed.

Best regards,

John

[Ivan Beaver]

Sorry about the downstage, upstage confusion.  I've never acted in my life!

That doesn't matter.  If you are going to use terms-they need to be used PROPERLY.

IF NOT-You are going to cause confusion among the people trying to HELP you.

When asked a question-you HAVE TO GIVE AN ACCURATE-HONEST answer.

If not, then the person trying to help you- may think something different and take a totally different "path" towards the answer.

DETAILS ARE VERY VERY IMPORTANT.

Sure it may be a simple eq problem.   But not knowing how the system is setup-type of system-how the console is "preset" etc, gives almost NO information to go on.  That is like saying "Yeah your TV is just a simple blown transistor problem".  Yeah-simple to some-but VERY COMPLICATED to those who have no idea what to do or how it works.

There is no "magic bullet.  It could be a combination of MANY things.

If you are having problems getting the installer to help you out, then that also raises flags as to to how good the design is-how well it is setup/aligned etc.

A forum is not the place to get this type of specific advice (especially when the people have nod idea about what kind of gear or how it is installed (or even WHERE it is installed)).

You REALLY need to HIRE somebody who knows what is going on to come out and try to help you.

From the sound of it-don't be surprised if they tell you you need to start over.

Sorry to be harsh-but this is the REAL world.

It sound like the installer was the type who got the low bid-did the job and is on to the next one-and does not have the time (nor resources) to support his previous work.

There is a reason he was the cheap guy.  But I won't get started down that road.

[g'bye, Dick Rees]

When asked a question-you HAVE TO GIVE AN ACCURATE-HONEST answer.

If not, then the person trying to help you- may think something different and take a totally different "path" towards the answer.

DETAILS ARE VERY VERY IMPORTANT.


It sound like the installer was the type who got the low bid-did the job and is on to the next one-and does not have the time (nor resources) to support his previous work.

Yes, details are very important.  And regarding the "installer", we have only a blurb from an inexperienced person trying to help out.  Should the installer be required to run over on short notice and perform tasks for which the system is capable.....in the hands of a competent  user?  Or are they being required to spend their time providing someone to run the system because:

1.  The purchaser was too cheap to pay for continuing support all the way down to hand-holding students and the janitor.

2.  The purchaser tried to "back-door" the original installer by having some ankle-biter come in and "adjust" their system?

Indeed, we do not have much information here at all, and while I bow to your years of (sometimes unfortunate) experiences in the field, I would not be so quick to look at the installer here when it is pretty obvious that the OP and the director have no idea, no clue about the technical requirements for theatrical sound reinforcement.

If it's been a problem in prior years, why have they not found someone competent to run show for them?   Are they expecting to go without wireless mics on the principles?  We just don't know what's going on......other than the usual c***.

I'll admit that the statement about the director giving up and working without the system makes me smile.  That's old-school theater and should actually give whoever ends up getting the job of sound reinforcement easier in the long run.   

[Ivan Beaver]

Yes, details are very important.  And regarding the "installer", we have only a blurb from an inexperienced person trying to help out.  Should the installer be required to run over on short notice and perform tasks for which the system is capable.....in the hands of a competent  user?  Or are they being required to spend their time providing someone to run the system because:

1.  The purchaser was too cheap to pay for continuing support all the way down to hand-holding students and the janitor.

2.  The purchaser tried to "back-door" the original installer by having some ankle-biter come in and "adjust" their system?

Indeed, we do not have much information here at all, and while I bow to your years of (sometimes unfortunate) experiences in the field, I would not be so quick to look at the installer here when it is pretty obvious that the OP and the director have no idea, no clue about the technical requirements for theatrical sound reinforcement.

If it's been a problem in prior years, why have they not found someone competent to run show for them?   Are they expecting to go without wireless mics on the principles?  We just don't know what's going on......other than the usual c***.

I'll admit that the statement about the director giving up and working without the system makes me smile.  That's old-school theater and should actually give whoever ends up getting the job of sound reinforcement easier in the long run.

I do agree that is not the installer job to "come over and adjust every little thing".  We don't know whether the installer may actually be good-but has been "dogged" to death by constant "how do I do this" type of stuff.

Agreed there is a certain amount of responsibility of the owner.  There are things they HAVE to learn to do themselves.

In any area- you cannot have a very flexible "tool" and not have a certain level of understanding/responsibility.

If the system consisted of only 4 volume controls-that you could only plug 4 mics into-then that would be a much simpler system to operate-  But with modern system, the users want all kinds of flexibility-and with that comes a certain amount of responsibility.

In this particular case-there are a HUGE amount of "unknowns".  Both on the install and support and operation.

But no matter what-there is not going to be a single post of "do this and your feedback will go away".

I am just waiting for the "feedback destroyer" idea to come up.--------------------------------------------

[jesseweiss]

Wow this went from people giving me some suggestions to people attacking me for using one word incorrectly.  Apparently my misuse of a word after a long day teaching would make it impossible to give any feedback.

I wasn't actually asking anyone for a "magic bullet", I was trying to determine if there was something I was missing.  Maybe I misrepresented myself when I said I was a newbie and that's why people are so quick to judge.  I also openly stated that I was trying to find someone to pay, but was having difficulty.

Just as an FYI, I started doing sound last year because the school was hiring the same sound company that installed the system to run sound and it was never good.  We bought our own wireless lavalier setup ( for a few grand rather than paying them $11k a year) and I was able to do the job as well as the "professional" they sent for a few hundred dollars rather than thousands.  Oddly enough, the guy who worked for the installer was never able to do any better with the system, which is why they were dropped.

My daughter was even in a play in the same theater (she's at an elementary in the district) and a pro they hired from a different company couldn't get any better results.

So that's what lead me here to try to find out more of what could be wrong.

As a teacher, I have to say that I find it a rather odd, condescending response by some here as if I was just lazy or ignorant.  Apparently this isn't the board for me.

As for those that offered some simple advice I could try while I wait for a pro (and the pro who sent me a message and offered their professional services) I thank you.

[Patrick Tracy]

Basic things you can to to reduce feedback (assuming system response is reasonable):

1. Make the source louder.

2. Reduce the distance between the source and the mic.

3. Aim the mic at the source.

4. Aim the mic away from the speakers (including reflected paths).

5. Aim the speakers away from the mic (including reflected paths).

6. Increase the distance between the speakers and the mic.

Having done what you can from the above list you can then try some eq. Do it like ringing out monitors, where you raise the level until it starts to ring then you find and cut that frequency. Repeat until you get enough volume. Don't try to cut too many frequencies or you get into diminishing returns. Graphic eq is faster and easier but parametric eq is more precise.

[Riley Casey]

As you and many others have noted the correct solution to your situation is to hire a professional to operate the sound system for the school musical.  A number of schools in our area call us for operators and to supplement their existing installed sound systems with professional equipment needed beyond the scope of the normal school auditorium business.  One option might be to subscribe to this mail list http://www.brooklyn.com/theatre-sound/index.html and enquire there.

Even with a properly installed sound system it is not at all unlikely that you would have difficulty getting good sound in the type of production you have described without a skilled operator.  One simple test is this, start a rehearsal without any voice amplification at all, have the band playing ( or CD ) playing at the normal performance level, have the kids singing their parts.  Sit in the third row, if you can't hear the voices at the kind of balance with the music that you want to achieve everywhere in the auditorium when the mics are on then no amount of sound system intervention is going to get you there beyond a very expensive wireless mic on every singer type of solution.

If the sound installer made the choice of a digital sound console then I suspect that person was not qualified to handle an installation at a middle school.  A simple analog sound board would have been much more appropriate unless he were to include on going operational support far beyond that normally provided in such arrangements.

As I said, I'm trying to find someone to come out (might have someone for Monday), but it's very short notice.  The original installer did set some EQ, etc..., but the problem is that is has never really worked well and any time the guy was asked to come back he was a total pain just telling my friend to read the manual and learn it himself.  Nice huh when working with a school.

[John Roberts {JR}]

Free advice on the Internet is never really free and asking newbie questions in the professional section of a professional forum invites some snarky answers (from professionals), who are reminded of unpleasant old experiences. OTOH you as a teacher see ignorance as an opportunity.. a cup that needs filling. 

Perhaps try in the kinder gentler section "lab lounge", or man up here and try to get some useful information from the (professional) talent answering you, between their jibes.

I find it is generally a waste of time to try to correct the attitude of others posting on the internet, every time I am not sympathetic with same.

JR

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