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Author Topic: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration  (Read 9485 times)

Shane O'Neal

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Re: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2012, 10:35:01 pm »

lol... geez, that's a little harsh isn't it?

While I agree that trying to use the auto-eq function of the DRPA+ as instructed in the manual will typically yield questionable results (to put it nicely), I disagree about it not being a useful tool. 

To the OP, before you give up on the DRPA+, go to the dbxpro.com user forums and check out the extensive information on more effective ways to utilize it, there are definitely better ways to make it work.  I've had great luck employing several of the methods outlined there.  Also, which Soundcraft mixer are you using?  (Sorry if I missed it earlier)

Thanks for the dbxpro tip.
The mixer is a Soundcraft E12
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Tom Burgess

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Re: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2012, 01:01:39 pm »

Not harsh at all.  By the time you know enough to make the darned thing work, you've learned how to do a better job without it.  It is not capable, even in the hands of an experienced user, of doing a better job than a good tech.  The amount of time and effort spent to get enough good samples to make it even approach what you can do with the "boost until it rings, then cut" method of ringing things out with a graphic (or parametric, preferably) is excessive and sometimes is not possible due to time constraints or the venue (when open to the public pre-show like a restaurant/bar/grill, etc) not needing the distraction of someone working the room.

Unless you're just a DJ doing playback with no live sound inputs, the Auto-EQ is a waste of space/time.  One does not have to have a golden ear, or indeed, any ear at all to ascertain when a system is pushed into low-level feedback to identify the "hot" frequencies.  And since you've already got your hand on the slider governing the offending frequency, there's nothing else to know.

How much time do you have to spend with your Auto-EQ to get it to really work?  And what do  you do when the whole sonic scenario changes with the addition of an audience and the accompanying temperature and humidity changes?  You can't run the Auto-EQ again whereas if you've learned the simple DIY GEQ method you can make adjustments and tweaks if conditions dictate.
No arguments from me about this IF you have an experienced operator to man the con.  Most of my work these days is in a retail music store environment and I have several clients that are definitely not experienced operators.  As an example... 

This one fellow is a pretty talented singer / frontman and although he's in his 30's he's new to the music entertainment biz and is concentrating full time on furthering his craft as a performer.  When he does gigs with a full band the production is either provided by the venue or hired out.  However, when he does "acoustic" gigs it consists of him and somtimes another guitarist / vocalist.  He needed a small rig that no matter where he sets up he can count on it to sound decent at worst with an absolute minimum amount of variables.  I used a DRPX to find flat for his powered speakers, set up the exact vocal mics he uses to help locate the most likely feedback points, and left a few of the live filters available for emergency feedback killers.  Is it perfect sound?  Nope, but it's pretty darn good and as close to foolproof as I can make it for someone that is just learning which end of the mic cable to plug in.  :)
 
Thanks for the dbxpro tip.
The mixer is a Soundcraft E12
You're welcome... hope you don't mind reading and have some time on your hands to do so! 
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If the band sounds great, it's because the band IS great, if the band sound like crap, it's the soundman's fault.

Opinions expressed by me on this forum are my own and not necessarily those of the company for which I work.

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Re: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2012, 01:13:59 pm »

No arguments from me about this IF you have an experienced operator to man the con.  Most of my work these days is in a retail music store environment and I have several clients that are definitely not experienced operators.  As an example... 

This one fellow is a pretty talented singer / frontman and although he's in his 30's he's new to the music entertainment biz and is concentrating full time on furthering his craft as a performer.  When he does gigs with a full band the production is either provided by the venue or hired out.  However, when he does "acoustic" gigs it consists of him and somtimes another guitarist / vocalist.  He needed a small rig that no matter where he sets up he can count on it to sound decent at worst with an absolute minimum amount of variables.  I used a DRPX to find flat for his powered speakers, set up the exact vocal mics he uses to help locate the most likely feedback points, and left a few of the live filters available for emergency feedback killers.  Is it perfect sound?  Nope, but it's pretty darn good and as close to foolproof as I can make it for someone that is just learning which end of the mic cable to plug in.  :)
 You're welcome... hope you don't mind reading and have some time on your hands to do so!

And I could show him how to do the same thing without spending extra bucks on excess capacity of questionable use.  AND he'd be able to set the system up in any room and have it good for the room.  But it's my job to help people learn to help themselves, not to sell them stuff.

To paraphrase an old adage:

"Teach a man to fish and he can feed himself.  Keep him ignorant and you can sell him fish forever."

Shane....

If you want to know how to use the gear you already have to do what you need, shoot me a PM and I'll send you a .doc file with the procedure.  It does not require a golden ear or even much experience.  If it doesn't work for you, then you can go out and buy more gear.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 02:39:32 pm by dick rees »
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Tom Burgess

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Re: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2012, 04:10:27 pm »

And I could show him how to do the same thing without spending extra bucks on excess capacity of questionable use.  AND he'd be able to set the system up in any room and have it good for the room. 
Apparently I was too vague with this part of my post:
Quote
...and is concentrating full time on furthering his craft as a performer.
He has neither the desire nor the intent to learn the "sound" end of the biz, he's got his hands full as it is thus he wanted something to plug and go.
But it's my job to help people learn to help themselves, not to sell them stuff.
Which is exactly what I did...  I took a complete newb and got him started with something that works every time, when or if he wants to learn more I'll be happy to teach him more.
To paraphrase an old adage:

"Teach a man to fish and he can feed himself.  Keep him ignorant and you can sell him fish forever."
Not quite sure where you're going with this train of thought but it sure as hell doesn't apply to me.  Of course you don't know me from a hole in the wall so you wouldn't know how many hours I've spent with this guy on my own time and my own dime since, as it turns out, he's not only a customer but a friend as well.  So, if you don't mind, please don't make assumptions like this about me and I won't make similarly rash assumptions about you, fair enough?

Shane - my apologies for this thread getting somewhat derailed, I'll try to not clutter it further, hope everything goes well with your rig.
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If the band sounds great, it's because the band IS great, if the band sound like crap, it's the soundman's fault.

Opinions expressed by me on this forum are my own and not necessarily those of the company for which I work.

g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2012, 04:35:14 pm »

Apparently I was too vague with this part of my post:He has neither the desire nor the intent to learn the "sound" end of the biz, he's got his hands full as it is thus he wanted something to plug and go.Which is exactly what I did...  I took a complete newb and got him started with something that works every time, when or if he wants to learn more I'll be happy to teach him more.Not quite sure where you're going with this train of thought but it sure as hell doesn't apply to me.  Of course you don't know me from a hole in the wall so you wouldn't know how many hours I've spent with this guy on my own time and my own dime since, as it turns out, he's not only a customer but a friend as well.  So, if you don't mind, please don't make assumptions like this about me and I won't make similarly rash assumptions about you, fair enough?

Shane - my apologies for this thread getting somewhat derailed, I'll try to not clutter it further, hope everything goes well with your rig.

Point taken.  You're correct that it's just too easy to impute intent or position from a single post and we should be more circumspect.

My two main issues/points here are:

1.  There is no "one adjustment fits all" setting on ANY piece of gear which allows one to go into a variety of rooms or situations which will be of use every time.  You acknowledged this, I believe, in your post and stated that you left a couple of floating filters to take care of any anomalies.  That is well and good, but:

2.  It takes very little time and no steep learning curve to learn how to quickly ring out a system in a room.  And the few minutes it takes means that the system is optimized for that room on that particular job.  Certainly better than a "shotgun setting with  2 dynamic filters".

Now in the case of your friend, if he's not interested in getting the best sound every time and is satisfied with an averaged, lowest-common denominator, no-work-involved approach, then I hope he doesn't approach his music in the same way.

As an added note so we can get to know each other a bit better, my approach and opinions come from a 35+ year career as a performer/professional musician.  I've been full-time at sound for the past 12 years, having worked in both music and sound at the same time for a dozen years before that.  That doesn't mean I know it all, or even know very much.  But I'm always convinced that if I can learn how to do it, anyone can......if they care about their product.  If I wanted a machine to do all the work, I guess I would have been a DJ.

DR
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Jared Koopman

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Re: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2012, 12:27:39 pm »

Point taken.  You're correct that it's just too easy to impute intent or position from a single post and we should be more circumspect.


2.  It takes very little time and no steep learning curve to learn how to quickly ring out a system in a room.  And the few minutes it takes means that the system is optimized for that room on that particular job.  Certainly better than a "shotgun setting with  2 dynamic filters".



This is something that I would love someone to teach me to do. I understand the basics of what is going on but since I have never done it myself and me being a hands on learning type of guy, I would love someone to walk me through it. Do you know of any written explanation of this process that I could read up on?

Jared
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2012, 01:05:23 pm »

This is something that I would love someone to teach me to do. I understand the basics of what is going on but since I have never done it myself and me being a hands on learning type of guy, I would love someone to walk me through it. Do you know of any written explanation of this process that I could read up on?

Jared

Use the search tool provided on this page (upper right corner) and use "Dick Rees" as the terms.  Dick just posted an exhaustive "how to" on this very topic.
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Re: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2012, 01:25:05 pm »

Use the search tool provided on this page (upper right corner) and use "Dick Rees" as the terms.  Dick just posted an exhaustive "how to" on this very topic.

Yeah.  I'm plumb wore out.
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Jared Koopman

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Re: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2012, 01:40:37 pm »

Yeah.  I'm plumb wore out.

Run out of Wheaties?  :)
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David Morison

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Re: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2012, 02:34:48 pm »

Use the search tool provided on this page (upper right corner) and use "Dick Rees" as the terms.  Dick just posted an exhaustive "how to" on this very topic.

I'm feeling nice...
Jared - go to the message linked in this:

I've written the following procedure so many times that I should really put it in a .doc so I can just paste it in.  There are some YouTube videos, but I find something wrong or "fuzzy" in every one I've looked at and so do not link to them.  But there are quite a few.

Cheers,
David.
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Re: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2012, 02:34:48 pm »


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