ProSoundWeb Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration  (Read 9480 times)

Shane O'Neal

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9
  • Upstate South Carolina - Greer
    • New River Bluegrass
Re: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2012, 03:16:57 pm »


I'm not going to say that these are the wrong mics, just that they're not really very practical for what they're trying to do. 

A comp/limiter will do nothing to cure the "pops".  Pop filters and high-pass filters are what you should be looking for.  Gating is also counter-indicated for a variety of reasons, the main one being that when the gate opens up, there you are.  Problems.  Gate closes, problems and sound go away.  Gating in this situation will be extremely audible and not a pretty thing.

Here's a list:

1.  Learn to identify and even out the "hot" frequencies in your setup by proper speaker/mic placement and judicious use of GEQ/PEQ.

2.  Get a decent console.

3.  Work with the group to settle on more practical microphones. 

I'll just say that I own many LDC's and have often used the AE3000's, but I wouldn't throw them all up for an acoustic group like this.  If you solo these mics, you'll be able to hear pretty much everything that's going on on stage in each of them.  Turn one up, you turn up more than just the individual voice or instrument, UNLESS the players are strong, highly skilled and work the mics very, very close, keeping the ratio of desired sound to stage bleed as high as possible.

If the various mics are contributing too much to the mix, it's time to get something with a tighter pattern.  Contrary to what the band is thinking, there are great sounding mics which aren't WFO as far as pattern goes.

It could be worse, though.  They could be using the "single mic" technique and wanting loud, loud monitors..........

What mics would you recommend in our situation?
specific models, or chracteristics.
Logged

g'bye, Dick Rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7424
  • Duluth
Re: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2012, 03:42:40 pm »

What mics would you recommend in our situation?
specific models, or chracteristics.

I just find it strange that a band would invest in higher-end mics bordering on "studio" types and then plug them through a cheaper, limited feature mixer and no system EQ. Of course, after having played that type of music for a  major part of my living for over 30 years, I'd probably want to give them all picking and singing lessons as well......... ;D

Not knowing the players or having heard them, I can't really say that anything I've said to this point and from here on is going to be more than 50% correct, but IMO, the most professional and workable setup is to go with a VERY good pickup system and the associated pre-amp/processing from the same manufacturer for the guitar to hedge your bets along with the microphone, especially if the guitar takes solo rides.  Probably THE most common weak link in BG performance is the guitar solo.  Either the mic technique is not good or the rest of the band won't back off and let the guitar sing out.  Being able to bring up a direct-fed channel to support the mic or carry the solo is extremely desirable.  Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.  Also, in certain "touchy" rooms/setups, it will give you an "out" for balanced performance........always remembering that running sound is the ultimate exercise in compromise, balancing what works with what sounds good.

There is a spectrum of staging/presentation which runs from multiple mics/inputs for each performer all the way to the single LDC technique.  Somewhere between those two extremes there's a happy median.  The mics you choose should serve the setup as much as possible.  My personal preference as a player is to have a good mic like a DPA mounted on the fiddle and mandolin, a good single LDC vocal mic or good, hyper-cardioid vocal mics/person and one or two good SDC's down for low-slung instruments like the banjo, guitar, dobro, etc.  Stand-up bass should have a high-quality transducer WITH a matching pre-amp or even a small bass amp with a balanced direct out. 

I'll look for some clips of various setups to append.  For now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpzEcyegQIQ

Single mic w/bass direct in.

More to follow.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98jNS8MmEqw

Single vocal mic w/solo support mics low and bass direct or mounted mic. 

And for the finale:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYhlXdxbAXc&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9D-_gdWlLpRfoETvIF6w9Dh&playnext=2

Notice the only LDC is on Jerry's dobro, and it's a KSM44 in figure eight pattern so the nulls on the sides keep the bleed from the stage from getting in.  Otherwise they're using high-quality SDC's for the guitar and fiddle what I would guess is Neumann KM105 for voice.  Please note that the pickup pattern on these mics is tighter than your typical LDC.
This means that the mic "hears" more of the intended input and helps diminish the amount of extraneous sound seeping into the mix.

That's all..


 
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 04:08:05 pm by dick rees »
Logged
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

duane massey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1529
Re: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2012, 05:04:37 pm »

IF what you have is your only option, your results will be limited. Definitely forego the auto-eq function, it is truly worthless. You don't need compression, gates, all the other bells and whistles, but you do need to spend a lot of time with the group and the system tweaking the various EQ's. I would start with the sub turned way down or off, set the system for best possible sound, bring up the sub, and only add as much as needed. Don't be afraid to do odd things with the channel EQ's, especially the instruments, as that's just about all you can do to differentiate between the vocals and the rest of the music. You also should experiment with the crossover point and the slopes, as well as setting the hi-pass on the sub higher than you might with other genres.
Logged
Duane Massey
Technician, musician, stubborn old guy
Houston, Texas

Shane O'Neal

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9
  • Upstate South Carolina - Greer
    • New River Bluegrass
Re: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2012, 09:53:44 pm »

I just find it strange that a band would invest in higher-end mics bordering on "studio" types and then plug them through a cheaper, limited feature mixer and no system EQ. Of course, after having played that type of music for a  major part of my living for over 30 years, I'd probably want to give them all picking and singing lessons as well......... ;D

Not knowing the players or having heard them, I can't really say that anything I've said to this point and from here on is going to be more than 50% correct, but IMO, the most professional and workable setup is to go with a VERY good pickup system and the associated pre-amp/processing from the same manufacturer for the guitar to hedge your bets along with the microphone, especially if the guitar takes solo rides.  Probably THE most common weak link in BG performance is the guitar solo.  Either the mic technique is not good or the rest of the band won't back off and let the guitar sing out.  Being able to bring up a direct-fed channel to support the mic or carry the solo is extremely desirable.  Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.  Also, in certain "touchy" rooms/setups, it will give you an "out" for balanced performance........always remembering that running sound is the ultimate exercise in compromise, balancing what works with what sounds good.

There is a spectrum of staging/presentation which runs from multiple mics/inputs for each performer all the way to the single LDC technique.  Somewhere between those two extremes there's a happy median.  The mics you choose should serve the setup as much as possible.  My personal preference as a player is to have a good mic like a DPA mounted on the fiddle and mandolin, a good single LDC vocal mic or good, hyper-cardioid vocal mics/person and one or two good SDC's down for low-slung instruments like the banjo, guitar, dobro, etc.  Stand-up bass should have a high-quality transducer WITH a matching pre-amp or even a small bass amp with a balanced direct out. 

I'll look for some clips of various setups to append.  For now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpzEcyegQIQ

Single mic w/bass direct in.

More to follow.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98jNS8MmEqw

Single vocal mic w/solo support mics low and bass direct or mounted mic. 

And for the finale:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYhlXdxbAXc&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9D-_gdWlLpRfoETvIF6w9Dh&playnext=2

Notice the only LDC is on Jerry's dobro, and it's a KSM44 in figure eight pattern so the nulls on the sides keep the bleed from the stage from getting in.  Otherwise they're using high-quality SDC's for the guitar and fiddle what I would guess is Neumann KM105 for voice.  Please note that the pickup pattern on these mics is tighter than your typical LDC.
This means that the mic "hears" more of the intended input and helps diminish the amount of extraneous sound seeping into the mix.

That's all..

Thanks for the recommendations and video examples. In the last video it looks as though Jerry may be using a pickup as well.

As far as the high end microphones and lower end mixer. I believe it was just a case of upgrading one component at a time as resources allowed. The mixer is next on the list to be upgraded, and should happen soon. Can our Driverack be used to manually tune and ring out feedback? We have a 31 band eq that we pulled out when the DR was purchased. If we need to reinsert that in the chain, we can do that.
Logged

g'bye, Dick Rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7424
  • Duluth
Re: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2012, 10:00:10 pm »

Can our Driverack be used to manually tune and ring out feedback?

Theoretically.  But "mousing around" to implement the ringing out procedure I described is rather tedious.  A good quality old-fashioned analog unit with actual physical controls is much easier and quicker.  Peering at the small rather hard to read LCD display on the DRack is a PITA.
Logged
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

Shane O'Neal

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9
  • Upstate South Carolina - Greer
    • New River Bluegrass
Re: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2012, 09:22:44 am »

Theoretically.  But "mousing around" to implement the ringing out procedure I described is rather tedious.  A good quality old-fashioned analog unit with actual physical controls is much easier and quicker.  Peering at the small rather hard to read LCD display on the DRack is a PITA.

Other than the autoeq and feedback supression we are just using the DR for crossover. Are there any features we are overlooking that we should be using in our situation?

Logged

g'bye, Dick Rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7424
  • Duluth
Re: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2012, 10:12:09 am »

Other than the autoeq and feedback supression we are just using the DR for crossover. Are there any features we are overlooking that we should be using in our situation?

No.  The cross-over. system PEQ and any driver alignment delay are all I would recommend.  I dislike the user interface of the graphic EQ, the feedback suppression is  arguably a useless band-aid and anyone using the Auto-EQ should be summarily executed.
Logged
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

Tom Burgess

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 353
Re: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2012, 10:51:06 am »

No.  The cross-over. system PEQ and any driver alignment delay are all I would recommend.  I dislike the user interface of the graphic EQ, the feedback suppression is  arguably a useless band-aid and anyone using the Auto-EQ should be summarily executed.
lol... geez, that's a little harsh isn't it?

While I agree that trying to use the auto-eq function of the DRPA+ as instructed in the manual will typically yield questionable results (to put it nicely), I disagree about it not being a useful tool. 

To the OP, before you give up on the DRPA+, go to the dbxpro.com user forums and check out the extensive information on more effective ways to utilize it, there are definitely better ways to make it work.  I've had great luck employing several of the methods outlined there.  Also, which Soundcraft mixer are you using?  (Sorry if I missed it earlier)
Logged
If the band sounds great, it's because the band IS great, if the band sound like crap, it's the soundman's fault.

Opinions expressed by me on this forum are my own and not necessarily those of the company for which I work.

g'bye, Dick Rees

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7424
  • Duluth
Re: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2012, 02:19:36 pm »

lol... geez, that's a little harsh isn't it?

While I agree that trying to use the auto-eq function of the DRPA+ as instructed in the manual will typically yield questionable results (to put it nicely), I disagree about it not being a useful tool. 

To the OP, before you give up on the DRPA+, go to the dbxpro.com user forums and check out the extensive information on more effective ways to utilize it, there are definitely better ways to make it work.  I've had great luck employing several of the methods outlined there.  Also, which Soundcraft mixer are you using?  (Sorry if I missed it earlier)

Not harsh at all.  By the time you know enough to make the darned thing work, you've learned how to do a better job without it.  It is not capable, even in the hands of an experienced user, of doing a better job than a good tech.  The amount of time and effort spent to get enough good samples to make it even approach what you can do with the "boost until it rings, then cut" method of ringing things out with a graphic (or parametric, preferably) is excessive and sometimes is not possible due to time constraints or the venue (when open to the public pre-show like a restaurant/bar/grill, etc) not needing the distraction of someone working the room.

Unless you're just a DJ doing playback with no live sound inputs, the Auto-EQ is a waste of space/time.  One does not have to have a golden ear, or indeed, any ear at all to ascertain when a system is pushed into low-level feedback to identify the "hot" frequencies.  And since you've already got your hand on the slider governing the offending frequency, there's nothing else to know.

How much time do you have to spend with your Auto-EQ to get it to really work?  And what do  you do when the whole sonic scenario changes with the addition of an audience and the accompanying temperature and humidity changes?  You can't run the Auto-EQ again whereas if you've learned the simple DIY GEQ method you can make adjustments and tweaks if conditions dictate.
Logged
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

duane massey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1529
Re: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2012, 06:20:21 pm »

I agree with Dick on the auto-EQ, but I mildly disagree with the usefulness of the FBX section. IF it is used properly it can be useful, but disregard the concept of the "live" filters. If you use only fixed filters it's really just a chain of parametrics, and you don't have to use all of them. I don't use this function often, but I do use it for Karaoke bars.
And how about that sub-harmonic thingy?
Logged
Duane Massey
Technician, musician, stubborn old guy
Houston, Texas

ProSoundWeb Community

Re: "P popping" and alternate drive rack configuration
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2012, 06:20:21 pm »


Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Up
 



Page created in 0.1 seconds with 25 queries.