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Author Topic: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help  (Read 23942 times)

Ivan Beaver

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help-WRONG!!!
« Reply #60 on: November 23, 2012, 10:37:09 pm »

have recently added that the feedback issue is the same regardless of live , rehearsal, or otherwise...plainly the equipment does not seem as if its doing what it is designed to do.
WRONG  WRONG WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many times do we have to say it.  Maybe if it is capitalized  IF YOUR SPEAKERS ARE BEHIND THE MICS_EITHER IN PRACTICE OR LIVE_THEN THAT IS WRONG-IN EVERY SITUATION-if you want to get very loud.

DON'T blame the equipment-it is YOU that is doing it WRONG>

MOVE THE SPEAKERS OUT FRONT_WHERE THEY BELONG.  If you need to hear-then add some monitors.

DO NOT expect the same loudspeaker cabinets to do BOTH jobs.

THERE IS NOT amount of eq or any other "adjustment" that you can make.  You might can make a marginal difference-but probably not what you are wanting.

FOLLOW THE BASIC RULES OF SOUND-DO NOT LOOK FOR A MAGICAL SOLUTION.

And don't blame the gear when it is obviously operator error.

I hate to be so harsh-but if you would LISTEN to what everybody is TRYING to tell you, then you could improve things.

If you don't want to listen-then keep on trying it your way and good luck- you are going to need it.

There is a REASON people keep saying the same thing-and it is NOT the actual gear you are using.  It is HOW you are using it.
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Jeff Young

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help-WRONG!!!
« Reply #61 on: November 23, 2012, 11:17:48 pm »

WRONG  WRONG WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many times do we have to say it.  Maybe if it is capitalized  IF YOUR SPEAKERS ARE BEHIND THE MICS_EITHER IN PRACTICE OR LIVE_THEN THAT IS WRONG-IN EVERY SITUATION-if you want to get very loud.

DON'T blame the equipment-it is YOU that is doing it WRONG>

MOVE THE SPEAKERS OUT FRONT_WHERE THEY BELONG.  If you need to hear-then add some monitors.

DO NOT expect the same loudspeaker cabinets to do BOTH jobs.

THERE IS NOT amount of eq or any other "adjustment" that you can make.  You might can make a marginal difference-but probably not what you are wanting.

FOLLOW THE BASIC RULES OF SOUND-DO NOT LOOK FOR A MAGICAL SOLUTION.

And don't blame the gear when it is obviously operator error.

I hate to be so harsh-but if you would LISTEN to what everybody is TRYING to tell you, then you could improve things.

If you don't want to listen-then keep on trying it your way and good luck- you are going to need it.

There is a REASON people keep saying the same thing-and it is NOT the actual gear you are using.  It is HOW you are using it.

Ivan, I was merely replying to someones comment that I seem to be looking strictly for help in setting up a basement which is not the case. Be it my fault in setting up the mixer wrong or our speaker arrangements or the walls being made of cheese our equipment is not running as it is supposed to. I haven't been doing this since I was fourteen but I have been around long to know that 425 watts will do a hell of alot more than make you struggle to hear it.

I have mentioned on several occasions that I will re arranging the entire lay out of the set up this weekend, installing an EQ and re doing the mixer/amp settings in an effort to eliminate any feedback from loudspeakers/microphones intermingling with each other. All based on everything you and others have said on here.....not sure where you think I haven't listened

Why haven't you read those comments?

At least four times I have said exactly that, leading one to believe that I have acknowledged several times that the set up is wrong agreeing with you on every point you say im not listening to.

until we get into a space for a bit where we can spread out and find a set up solution for live sound we have to work in this basement.  If I throw the speakers out front I will deluge anyone sitting at the bar with nothing but singer voice at amp'd levels right in their face. It is apparent that in the basement we will have to set up for monitors and watch our levels. But moving the speakers out front laying em down or putting em up in the attic doesn't change the fact that I have set the mixer up wrong and have acknowledged that several times. I haven't had a chance yet to get over there and look at actual settings but I can safely tell you that every channel on the mixer that has a mic is maxed out.  If the mixer isn't set up right EQ'd properly and every input leveled properly there will little to no control over the mix, right. If the mixer setting aren't important there is an entire industry of sound techs who are drastically over paid.  This is what you all have been saying.  I have not suggested in any part of here that I want to get very loud. We are not trying to blow the ceiling off the house. But when our guitarists are doing even acoustics and you cant hear the singer through 425 watts.......it is not running as it is designed to. I haven't blamed any gear here other than to say its not running as it should......I dont mention that I set it up wrong in every post because im sure I established that.
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g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help-WRONG!!!
« Reply #62 on: November 23, 2012, 11:48:16 pm »

Ivan............... being made of cheese, our equipment is not running as it is supposed to.

I think I see your problem.......
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 01:14:25 am by dick rees »
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Brad Weber

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help-WRONG!!!
« Reply #63 on: November 24, 2012, 07:29:37 am »

I haven't been doing this since I was fourteen but I have been around long to know that 425 watts will do a hell of alot more than make you struggle to hear it.
A simple experiment, but unplug or mute all the live sources and try playing back a recorded source.  Can you get the system loud enough with no live mics or sources?  If so then the mixer, amp and speakers seem to be working fine.
 
If that works but you can't get the system loud enough with live sources then you need to quit thinking about the amp output and learn about Potential Acoustic Gain (PAG) and Needed Acoustic Gain (NAG).  That sounds technical but it is really about being able to amplify a live sound source to the degree desired without feedback  and whether you can get the desired output with a given input.
 
Needed Acoustic Gain is how gain you need or want for a source, basically how much you want amplify a source.  Potential Acoustic Gain is how much gain can be applied to that source before the system goes into feedback.  The overall goal is an electroacoustic system (room and electronics) that has more Potential Acoustic Gain than is needed or desired (PAG>NAG). If the Potential Acoustic Gain is less than the Needed Acoustic Gain, or PAG<NAG,  then the system will feed back.
 
I won't go into all the details but suffice it to say the PAG-NAG calculations relate to physical relationships - distances, angles and directionality.  How much gain you can get from a system does not even consider the amplifier power, that may affect how loud the speaker output can be but not how much gain you can apply to the singer before going into feedback.  It doesn't matter if your speaker can output 150dB if the system starts to feed back at 80dB.
 
So maybe stop thinking in terms of how loud you think it should be and instead focus on how to increase the gain you can apply to, or essentially how much you can amplify, any source without going into feedback.  And that is going to mean looking at the physical relationships of the source to the microphone, the physical relationships between the speakers and microphones, the physical relationships between the speakers/microphones and the room, the physical relationships between the speakers and listeners, the system processing applied and so on.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 03:58:27 pm by Brad Weber »
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help-WRONG!!!
« Reply #64 on: November 24, 2012, 08:40:40 am »

It doesn't matter if you had 10,000 watts, in your current setup you will not be able to get it ANY louder without feedback.

Your basic  problem is that while you have the wattage you do-you cannot get it any louder (or use the full potential of what you have) because of your speaker placement-PERIOD!

Short of eqing out any peaks in the response-there are not settings on the console (ESPECIALLY GAINS/LEVELS ETC) that will get it any louder without feedback. 2+2+3+3= 9+1.  You can adjust till your hearts content-but it will not get any louder.

THAT is limited by the TOTAL GAIN through the system.  As Brad and I have pointed out PAG-NAG.

You say every channel on the mixer is "maxed out".. ExACTLY WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?  If you mean the input gain/trim eq and channel master volumes are all turned up all the way-then you have WAAAYYY more issues than simple feedback.

Distortion would be the FIRST that would come to mind.  But we have not even started talking about that yet.

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Jeff Young

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help-WRONG!!!
« Reply #65 on: November 24, 2012, 09:03:36 am »

A simple experiment, but unplug or mute all the live sources and try playing back a recorded source.  Can you get the system loud enough with no live mics or sources?  If so then the mixer, amp and speakers seem to be working fine.
 
I that works but you can't get the system loud enough with live sources then you need to quit thinking about the amp output and learn about Potential Acoustic Gain (PAG) and Needed Acoustic Gain (NAG).  That sounds technical but it is really about being able to amplify a live sound source to the degree desired without feedback.  It's whether you can get the desired output with a given input.
 
Needed Acoustic Gain is how gain you need or want for a source, basically how much you want amplify a source.  Potential Acoustic Gain is how much gain can be applied to that source before the system goes into feedback.  The overall goal is an electroacoustic system (room and electronics) that has more Potential Acoustic Gain than is needed or desired (PAG>NAG). If the Potential Acoustic Gain is less than the Needed Acoustic Gain, or PAG<NAG,  then the system will feed back.
 
I won't go into all the details but suffice it to say the PAG-NAG calculations relate to physical relationships - distances, angles and directionality.  How much gain you can get from a system does not even consider the amplifier power, that may affect how loud the speaker output can be but not how much gain you can apply to the singer before going into feedback.  It doesn't matter if your speaker can output 150dB if the system starts to feed back at 80dB.
 
So maybe stop thinking in terms of how loud you think it should be and instead focus on how to increase the gain you can apply to, or essentially how much you can amplify, any source without going into feedback.  And that is going to mean looking at the physical relationships of the source to the microphone, the physical relationships between the speakers and microphones, the physical relationships between the speakers/microphones and the room, the physical relationships between the speakers and listeners, the system processing applied and so on.

yes I can plug my cellphone into a channel zero it out and it will play with no issues and have plenty of volume...Have read thru a pag-nag site....that one will take some time to sink into my "gray matter."

Ivan, not all the settings....but in a nut shell I would have to say that the EQ on the singers channel is boosted, the trim is almost at full... i have him routed thru 1-2 /3-4 / l-r which I now know makes absolutely no sense for our purposes, their are a few trim knobs for solo, aux's that are way up.
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John Halliburton

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help-WRONG!!!
« Reply #66 on: November 24, 2012, 09:42:32 am »



Ivan, not all the settings....but in a nut shell I would have to say that the EQ on the singers channel is boosted, the trim is almost at full... i have him routed thru 1-2 /3-4 / l-r which I now know makes absolutely no sense for our purposes, their are a few trim knobs for solo, aux's that are way up.

EQ is NOT for "boosting"!!!!!!!!  NO NO NO No fucking NO!

The trim is not supposed to be fucking "at full", unless that's what is indicated by the level on the meters when looking at that channel.

Sorry, I've had a bad week, and you're not listening, nor doing things close to right.

The number of watts has nothing to do with what you perceive should happen-the feedback would occur if you were only using 100 watts.  It's the open mics on stage catching the sound from your band and your ill deployed speakers, and causing the feedback.  This can happen under "proper" stage setups too, but one of the rewards of good stage set up, mic choice and placement, a band who knows how to balance themselves first without a sound system in place-and keep it at a reasonably level, all contribute to minimize feedback problems in the first place, and allow the engineer to dial in as good a sound as possible for the given situation and gear.

I frankly wouldn't worry about putting the speakers out into the bar area more, you should be able to balance the mix accordingly.  I'd even suggest taking your main speakers, and use one as a monitor on it's own feed from an Aux send on the mixer, thru a graphic eq to ring out feedback, and just leave the other main speaker in that corner by the pool table firing down that wall at the bottom of the drawing.

Best regards,

John
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help-WRONG!!!
« Reply #67 on: November 24, 2012, 11:31:34 am »

yes I can plug my cellphone into a channel zero it out and it will play with no issues and have plenty of volume...Have read thru a pag-nag site....that one will take some time to sink into my "gray matter."

Ivan, not all the settings....but in a nut shell I would have to say that the EQ on the singers channel is boosted, the trim is almost at full... i have him routed thru 1-2 /3-4 / l-r which I now know makes absolutely no sense for our purposes, their are a few trim knobs for solo, aux's that are way up.
I have never seen a "trim knob for solo" what is that?  You may have a master solo level "knob", but that has NOTHING to do with the sound that is coming out of the speakers.

What are you using the aux for?

It sounds like you need to start learning what the knobs are for/do.  Just turning knobs and "hoping" to get a good sound is NOT the way to go about it.

Does you guitar player just turn the tuning keys and "hope" that he gets them in tune?

There IS a METHOD to go about.  GUESSING is NOT it.
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Jeff Young

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help-WRONG!!!
« Reply #68 on: November 24, 2012, 12:42:58 pm »

EQ is NOT for "boosting"!!!!!!!!  NO NO NO No fucking NO!

The trim is not supposed to be fucking "at full", unless that's what is indicated by the level on the meters when looking at that channel.

Sorry, I've had a bad week, and you're not listening, nor doing things close to right.

The number of watts has nothing to do with what you perceive should happen-the feedback would occur if you were only using 100 watts.  It's the open mics on stage catching the sound from your band and your ill deployed speakers, and causing the feedback.  This can happen under "proper" stage setups too, but one of the rewards of good stage set up, mic choice and placement, a band who knows how to balance themselves first without a sound system in place-and keep it at a reasonably level, all contribute to minimize feedback problems in the first place, and allow the engineer to dial in as good a sound as possible for the given situation and gear.

I frankly wouldn't worry about putting the speakers out into the bar area more, you should be able to balance the mix accordingly.  I'd even suggest taking your main speakers, and use one as a monitor on it's own feed from an Aux send on the mixer, thru a graphic eq to ring out feedback, and just leave the other main speaker in that corner by the pool table firing down that wall at the bottom of the drawing.

Best regards,

John

it has now become necessary or me to add that since I started this thread I have not had a chance to get over there to correct these and other issues, I have heard (read) everything said on here but havent been able to implement any of it as of yet....just got back from GC after purchasing a few new cables to replace some questionable cables we have been using.

Tonight I will be going to practice a bit early to re arrange most the equipment/speakers, mic levels, ringing out the PA and seeing how the fight about turning down goes to see what this system will actually do.
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Jeff Young

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help-WRONG!!!
« Reply #69 on: November 24, 2012, 12:44:16 pm »

I think I see your problem.......

seems funnier when you say it.
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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help-WRONG!!!
« Reply #69 on: November 24, 2012, 12:44:16 pm »


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