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Author Topic: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help  (Read 25452 times)

Jeff Young

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help
« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2012, 02:40:17 pm »

Use one speaker and run it only enough to bring the vocalist up over the instruments.  Keep the amps and the drums QUIET for rehearsal, work on timing and ensemble.  Don't expect to rehearse at performance level.  If you don't have monitors for performance and get used to listening to yours "mains as monitors" in rehearsal, it will be difficult to get comfortable in live performance as it will sound and feel entirely different.

I'm sorry to sound so critical.  I know you're just trying to learn something and get it right while the "musicians" have fun, but most of us passed through this phase when we were 14.  And for me that was a long, long time ago.

my issue is that I only started playing bass a few years ago as a fill in for them when theirs left. Kinda like it so I stuck around. We got involved in obtaining equipment no one knew a thing about cause they had always used a kustom pa head with matching 4x10 towers. Which btw ive been wondering might work better than the 2x15s for our purposes. They match up ohm wise the same as the 2x15's .....i will figure it out though
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help
« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2012, 05:21:57 pm »

my issue is that I only started playing bass a few years ago as a fill in for them when theirs left. Kinda like it so I stuck around. We got involved in obtaining equipment no one knew a thing about cause they had always used a kustom pa head with matching 4x10 towers. Which btw ive been wondering might work better than the 2x15s for our purposes. They match up ohm wise the same as the 2x15's .....i will figure it out though
With that setup-the PA speakers pointed INTO the mic-you are going to have problems hearing-if the instruments are at any decent level.

What you need is a PA (speakers pointed away from the mics) and monitors-speakers facing the musicians.

With the setup you have-there are limits as to how loud you can get it. 

Basically you are not operating the equipment properly.  Once you stat doing that-then you will be able to get better results.
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Ivan Beaver
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Ned Ward

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help
« Reply #52 on: November 23, 2012, 07:56:52 pm »

Jeff - in the future, when you post, ensure that you can include as much information as possible. With your subject line of "Live set up" most of us thought you were having issues on a stage. If it's a rehearsal space - that's fine - I've asked questions about my own rehearsal space -- but rehearsal space and a stage are two completely different things. Size of guitar amps and bass amps? Type of music? All excellent to include in your original post.

Search this forum for rehearsal space as there's quite a few threads on people having the same issues and how to do it correctly (as Ivan pointed up in the above post).
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Mario Maric

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help
« Reply #53 on: November 23, 2012, 08:09:11 pm »

Thankfully I asked the question. Make sure you guys aren't practicing loud either for health reasons. When my band first started my ears would ring after a 2hr practice that's when I had a talk that our stage volume is waaay to high!
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Jeff Young

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help
« Reply #54 on: November 23, 2012, 08:29:31 pm »

Jeff - in the future, when you post, ensure that you can include as much information as possible. With your subject line of "Live set up" most of us thought you were having issues on a stage. If it's a rehearsal space - that's fine - I've asked questions about my own rehearsal space -- but rehearsal space and a stage are two completely different things. Size of guitar amps and bass amps? Type of music? All excellent to include in your original post.

Search this forum for rehearsal space as there's quite a few threads on people having the same issues and how to do it correctly (as Ivan pointed up in the above post).

have recently added that the feedback issue is the same regardless of live , rehearsal, or otherwise...plainly the equipment does not seem as if its doing what it is designed to do. And from what I've seen here I already know that the settings are not right and I have the mixer throwing a ridiculous amount of gain increase into the amp from the start...unless 300 watts isn't much louder than a child's CD player...I know that isn't right. What I am learning here is going to help all the way around in any thing we do. We have played stages, living rooms, garages, basements and they are all "live." I am trying to learn how to operate the equipment in whatever situation we are in. The bars around here do not pay nearly enough to pay a sound man so that out of the question. Sorry for any misunderstanding. But if I had posted something about "how to set up for rehearsal in basement" I would of gotten a bunch of information geared at strictly playing in a basement for rehearsal. This equipment is our main set up and we have a 200 watt spring reverb Kustom PA head with cabs as a last resort. This thread would be weeks long if I made one for the basement, then came back after the next show and made one asking why it didn't work there either. Already talked to the guys and tommorow we should be tearing everything down and re arranging some things, re adjusting this or that. And basically starting from scratch on the set up.  I just looked back and your right, I didn't mention early on that we are currently using it in a basement. We have the possibility of doing a Cancer benefit with a few other band on the 8th and the equipment will need to be working properly, so I hope anyone will forgive me if I jumped a few formalities in my quest for answers.  Will let you all know how the changes work after practice tommorow....or maybe sunday morning
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Keith Humphrey

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help
« Reply #55 on: November 23, 2012, 08:45:34 pm »

You might try rearranging your speakers. In the picture they are not really mains but monitors. Try pointing the speaker near the toilet towards the drummer or the stairs. You do not show which way the singer is facing but try pointing the speaker by the stairs towards the mixer/toilet area. Assuming the singer stays in the same area this should  allow him/her to still hear and not have the mains pointing directly into the mics. I also think your overall volume is too much for the space. Rehearsing in the round so to speak  requires lower volumes than in a typical line used onstage.

You mention the drummer needing more thump. If this in rehearsal that further leads me to believe you are too loud for the space. If it is live then it could be that you sound ok out front but the drummer just doesn't feel it. In this situation all you might need is a monitor that will let the drummer feel the thump as opposed to adding it out front. 
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Jeff Young

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help
« Reply #56 on: November 23, 2012, 09:29:19 pm »

You might try rearranging your speakers. In the picture they are not really mains but monitors. Try pointing the speaker near the toilet towards the drummer or the stairs. You do not show which way the singer is facing but try pointing the speaker by the stairs towards the mixer/toilet area. Assuming the singer stays in the same area this should  allow him/her to still hear and not have the mains pointing directly into the mics. I also think your overall volume is too much for the space. Rehearsing in the round so to speak  requires lower volumes than in a typical line used onstage.

You mention the drummer needing more thump. If this in rehearsal that further leads me to believe you are too loud for the space. If it is live then it could be that you sound ok out front but the drummer just doesn't feel it. In this situation all you might need is a monitor that will let the drummer feel the thump as opposed to adding it out front.

going to post another sketch of how im thinking about laying it out
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Brad Weber

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help
« Reply #57 on: November 23, 2012, 09:46:12 pm »

Emphasis mine...
Shouldn't that be Amp inputs rather than Mixer?
You are absolutely correct, I meant amp input but obviously that's not what I typed.  Thanks for catching that, I've now corrected it.
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Jeff Young

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help
« Reply #58 on: November 23, 2012, 09:51:22 pm »

You might try rearranging your speakers. In the picture they are not really mains but monitors. Try pointing the speaker near the toilet towards the drummer or the stairs. You do not show which way the singer is facing but try pointing the speaker by the stairs towards the mixer/toilet area. Assuming the singer stays in the same area this should  allow him/her to still hear and not have the mains pointing directly into the mics. I also think your overall volume is too much for the space. Rehearsing in the round so to speak  requires lower volumes than in a typical line used onstage.

You mention the drummer needing more thump. If this in rehearsal that further leads me to believe you are too loud for the space. If it is live then it could be that you sound ok out front but the drummer just doesn't feel it. In this situation all you might need is a monitor that will let the drummer feel the thump as opposed to adding it out front.

heres the idea...along with putting in an eq on the mixer, ringing out the frequencies, setting the gain switch on the singers mic if needed, telling the singer to kiss the microphone, and seeing how low we can turn everything basically.  seems I forgot to add that the one 2x15 would now be pointing at the band. This would entirely for the basement set up however
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 09:53:39 pm by Jeff Young »
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Brad Weber

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help
« Reply #59 on: November 23, 2012, 10:02:00 pm »

have recently added that the feedback issue is the same regardless of live , rehearsal, or otherwise...plainly the equipment does not seem as if its doing what it is designed to do.
Yes and no.  A big part of gain before feedback is that speakers and microphones typically have some directivity or pattern, they pick up (microphones) or output (speakers) certain frequencies more in certain directions.  Thus the relationships of the microphone and speaker locations and aiming can be a critical element in getting acceptable gain before feedback.
 
That is one reason why in live situations you typically try to direct the reinforcement speaker output at the audience and minimize their output to the performers.  You have no audience in your basement so you are not using the speakers for reinforcement.
 
You are apparently using them for the band to hear, thus as monitors.  And while monitors need to cover the performers, you still help yourself to keep the relationships such that they maximize gain before feedback, for example locating monitors so they are at the null or least sensitive point in the microphone's pattern.  It may be much better to have the speakers when used as monitors in front of the band members pointed back at them, thus putting their maximum output directed at the band members and at the null or less sensitive angle at the rear of cardioid microphones.
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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help
« Reply #59 on: November 23, 2012, 10:02:00 pm »


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