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Author Topic: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help  (Read 25706 times)

Mario Maric

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2012, 12:27:18 am »

Question. Are you pointing these speakers at your band for monitors, or you are actually using them for mains? If you are getting feedback pushing the sound away from you then you are definitely doing something wrong. From what I understood just by turning it up marginally. If it was a monitor situation I'd understand a little more to why you're experiencing so much feedback. Even with my bands setup our stage volume isn't that loud we have 3 monitors with 1 pair running on the same eq and I rarely have to ring out or get feedback.
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Jeff Young

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2012, 09:07:37 am »

Question. Are you pointing these speakers at your band for monitors, or you are actually using them for mains? If you are getting feedback pushing the sound away from you then you are definitely doing something wrong. From what I understood just by turning it up marginally. If it was a monitor situation I'd understand a little more to why you're experiencing so much feedback. Even with my bands setup our stage volume isn't that loud we have 3 monitors with 1 pair running on the same eq and I rarely have to ring out or get feedback.

When we got these pieces they were set up in a rack with no power amp. I discussed the pieces with a "tech" at GC who informed me that the QSC GX3 would be plenty of power. Apparantly this is not accurate. When we purchased the power amp and threw it in I had to get online to figure out how to set it all up for our uses. Not aware that setting up a passive mixer system requires some actual thought I have been running around in circles trying to figure out why im feeding back.

We have three mics on a drum kit that's right next to a 2x15 Peavey which happens to be pointed pretty much at the singer, 1 2x15 Peavey pointed pretty much directly at the singer about 10 or 15' away from him. Since we are in a basement our set up is pretty confined and so we have three bass and guitar amps pointed right at the singer. The mixer has never been "rung out" and from what Im picking up on here my settings are all over the place.....Im thinking that for our practice session tonight or Saturday we might do better by spreading out in some sort of configuration that doesn't concentrate so many acoustics right on top of the singer. Will be rearranging a few things and doing a reset on the PA settings. Pulling everything out of the PA accept vocals. Taping the drummer to the ceiling when he tries to put himself back in the PA. And once we have a definite volume level for the singer we can then work on our levels.
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Ivan Beaver

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2012, 09:49:41 am »

When we got these pieces they were set up in a rack with no power amp. I discussed the pieces with a "tech" at GC who informed me that the QSC GX3 would be plenty of power. Apparantly this is not accurate. When we purchased the power amp and threw it in I had to get online to figure out how to set it all up for our uses. Not aware that setting up a passive mixer system requires some actual thought I have been running around in circles trying to figure out why im feeding back.

We have three mics on a drum kit that's right next to a 2x15 Peavey which happens to be pointed pretty much at the singer, 1 2x15 Peavey pointed pretty much directly at the singer about 10 or 15' away from him. Since we are in a basement our set up is pretty confined and so we have three bass and guitar amps pointed right at the singer. The mixer has never been "rung out" and from what Im picking up on here my settings are all over the place.....Im thinking that for our practice session tonight or Saturday we might do better by spreading out in some sort of configuration that doesn't concentrate so many acoustics right on top of the singer. Will be rearranging a few things and doing a reset on the PA settings. Pulling everything out of the PA accept vocals. Taping the drummer to the ceiling when he tries to put himself back in the PA. And once we have a definite volume level for the singer we can then work on our levels.
When you say "pointed at the singer" exactly what does that mean?

Are they pointed at the rear of his head-like towards the "hot" part of the mic? or out in front of the singer pointed towards his face?

The position of the speakers in relation to the pickup pattern of the mic can make all the difference.

From what it seems to me- you are not using the PA speakers as PA speakers-but rather as monitors.  EXCEPT you have them in the WRONG place!

Maybe if you could do a simple drawing of your layout-with arrows pointing the direction the cabinets are facing-that would help to give us a better idea of what you are doing.

As has been mentioned by myself and others-several times on this thread- LOCATION of the speakers makes a HUGE difference in how loud you can get them.
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Brad Weber

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help
« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2012, 10:49:26 am »

When we got these pieces they were set up in a rack with no power amp. I discussed the pieces with a "tech" at GC who informed me that the QSC GX3 would be plenty of power. Apparantly this is not accurate. When we purchased the power amp and threw it in I had to get online to figure out how to set it all up for our uses. Not aware that setting up a passive mixer system requires some actual thought I have been running around in circles trying to figure out why im feeding back.
First, if you are going into feedback then you are getting as loud as you can without first fixing that, which a bigger amp will not do.
 
The PV215 is rated at 350W/700W/1,400W and a nominal 4 Ohm impedance while the GX3 is rated at 425W/channel into 4 Ohms (at 1kHz).  So a GX5 might be a better match in many cases but at 98dB/1W/1m you would apprently be looking at the difference between 124.3dB and 126.5dB at 1m.  For monitors in a basement I seriously doubt you would need or benefit much from that extra 2.2dB and even then that would only be relevant if you could get the full output without feedback.
 
Put simply, you could potentially get more out of the speakers with a bigger amp but the difference might be marginal, I doubt you need it and it would not matter if the maximum speaker output possible is limited by feedback.  Your problem seems virtually certainly to be limited gain before feedback, which a bigger amp will not change.
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David Morison

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help
« Reply #44 on: November 23, 2012, 12:39:07 pm »

... it is why it is common for many mixers and other electronics to require 20dB or so of attenuation at the mixer inputs in order to have proper gain structure.

Emphasis mine...
Shouldn't that be Amp inputs rather than Mixer?
Doing all that attenuation at mixer input is just going to hammer the SNR, surely.
David.
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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help
« Reply #45 on: November 23, 2012, 12:47:59 pm »

Emphasis mine...
Shouldn't that be Amp inputs rather than Mixer?
Doing all that attenuation at mixer input is just going to hammer the SNR, surely.
David.

Likely referring to padding down a line level signal to a mic input.
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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help
« Reply #46 on: November 23, 2012, 01:03:58 pm »

Recently came across a
Mackie 1604 vlz mixer,
an Alesis 3630 compressor/gate,
Furhman power unit,
QSC Gx3 300 watt power amp,
2 Peavey 2x15 stacks with voice coils,
Shure PG58 wireless mic and receiver

We are currently using this set up minus the Alesis because the powered pa head we had, had some issues...However no matter what Ive tried to adjust on the vocals/drums I cant seem to get them loud enough to be heard clearly over everything else thru the Peaveys without ridiculous feedback/random pops and other issues. Hoping someone here can shed some light on something I didnt think of.
I currently dont have anything ran through any aux send/returns on the mixer..it is basically 4 mics plugged into the mono inputs on the back of the mixer channels, mixer plugged into power amp and amp to speakers. But cannot for the life of me get the drums to sound good or get the vocals to a level where the singer can be heard clearly from the speakers....probably his technique but even a bad singer should be blasting out of the speakers I would think.

So now it's clear that you're NOT using this in a "live sound setup" but rather in a basement rehearsal space, not as a PA but as monitors........and with no system EQ.

Of course it's going to feed back when you're in a small space pointing the speakers at the performers.  What did you expect?

Sheeshh.......
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Jeff Young

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help
« Reply #47 on: November 23, 2012, 01:50:08 pm »

So now it's clear that you're NOT using this in a "live sound setup" but rather in a basement rehearsal space, not as a PA but as monitors........and with no system EQ.

Of course it's going to feed back when you're in a small space pointing the speakers at the performers.  What did you expect?

Sheeshh.......

will draw up something and link here somehow.
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Jeff Young

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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help
« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2012, 02:09:41 pm »

So now it's clear that you're NOT using this in a "live sound setup" but rather in a basement rehearsal space, not as a PA but as monitors........and with no system EQ.

Of course it's going to feed back when you're in a small space pointing the speakers at the performers.  What did you expect?

Sheeshh.......

here a rough sketch of basement space.....and this system has to operate for both rehearsal and live set up ...this is the reason I am here trying to learn the right way to set it up. have picked up enough here already to know that different spaces require different considerations. These are what Im after. And since the feedback issue is the same when in the basement, outside, in a garage with the door open or otherwise....leads me to believe its it in the settings which were never set up properly to begin with, speaker placement, volume level of amps in the basement, drummers incessant chattering about how he needs more thump, starting to think that its quite possible that the rhythm guitarists wife is even causing feedback with all her talking.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 02:35:05 pm by Jeff Young »
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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help
« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2012, 02:23:50 pm »

here a rough sketch of basement space.....and this system has to operate for both rehearsal and live set up ...this is the reason I am here trying to learn the right way to set it up. have picked up enough here already to know that different spaces require different considerations. These are what Im after.

Use one speaker and run it only enough to bring the vocalist up over the instruments.  Keep the amps and the drums QUIET for rehearsal, work on timing and ensemble.  Don't expect to rehearse at performance level.  If you don't have monitors for performance and get used to listening to yours "mains as monitors" in rehearsal, it will be difficult to get comfortable in live performance as it will sound and feel entirely different.

I'm sorry to sound so critical.  I know you're just trying to learn something and get it right while the "musicians" have fun, but most of us passed through this phase when we were 14.  And for me that was a long, long time ago. 
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Re: gain issues in live set up not sure how to fix..please help
« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2012, 02:23:50 pm »


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