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Author Topic: Band makes judgement through a portable recorder.  (Read 15591 times)

g'bye, Dick Rees

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Re: Band makes judgement through a portable recorder.
« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2012, 04:56:33 pm »

I suggest that you not mix them on an LS-9 (Yamaha digital console), but instead use an LS-32 (32 oz. Louisville Slugger).

In my dotage I comfort myself by being able to walk away from such s*** and not lose any sleep whatsoever.  When someone, however well-meaning, comes up and tries to tell me how to do my job while I'm doing it (despite them talking or yelling into my ear.....), I just step back from the console and invite them to take over.  To date I've gotten no takers.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Band makes judgement through a portable recorder.
« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2012, 05:03:13 pm »

I suggest that you not mix them on an LS-9 (Yamaha digital console), but instead use an LS-32 (32 oz. Louisville Slugger).

In my dotage I comfort myself by being able to walk away from such s*** and not lose any sleep whatsoever.  When someone, however well-meaning, comes up and tries to tell me how to do my job while I'm doing it (despite them talking or yelling into my ear.....), I just step back from the console and invite them to take over.  To date I've gotten no takers.

I can tell I need to visit Minnesota... but stand back from the box of squeeze, Rees.... :D
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Dave Rickard

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Re: Re: Band makes judgement through a portable recorder.
« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2012, 05:50:53 pm »

(I'm the Original Poster.)

I didn't want to turn down the show either, because I am helping the other sound guy resolve a scheduling conflict. I am free that night and, who knows, I may need the favor returned some day.

Helping another friend is good.
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Bob Leonard

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Re: Band makes judgement through a portable recorder.
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2012, 09:45:24 pm »

I can tell I need to visit Minnesota... but stand back from the box of squeeze, Rees.... :D

Squeeze Rees. ;D
 
If it were me I would let the dummer (sic) make recommendations, yes ma'm the shit out him, then do what you want as the gig progresses. How's he going to know. He doesn't walk the floor and if he doesn't like the recording he can only blame himself.
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Tim Perry

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Re: Band makes judgement through a portable recorder.
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2012, 09:49:25 pm »

His portable recorder is a modern digital jobbie with two condenser mics sticking out the top.

Expecting a first time BE to mix cues with not even a rehearsal is just a bit to much.

Just my opinion but the only way one could make the guy happy is to mix the show with headphone on and plugged into the recorder... preferably from another room or sound truck.

You will pretty much sacrifice  the listening pleasure if the audience.

While pretty nice it take some post production to make recordings made in this fashion sound "better".  some EQ, multiband compression, maybe some effects.  usually when the recorders is at FOH the crown noise is way too much.

Optimum placement for the recorder to be on a stand near one main speaker  positioned to catch about half speaker and half stage volume.  the will get the best signal to noise ratio given this recording method. Bass and kick will be a little light.



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George Friedman-Jimenez

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Re: Band makes judgement through a portable recorder.
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2012, 01:42:42 am »

I agree a well placed digi tal recorder of decent quality can sound pretty close to what the audience in that spot hears. The problem is the drummer doesn't know how to translate his perception of the sound into what to do to make it sound better. Try sitting down with him with a y connector and 2 similar headphones and listening to the recording together, discussing what he likes and doesn't like about the sound, and what each of you would do to change it. You will probably be able to agree on a plan. Then do it and make whatever additional adjustments you want. It will probably sound better, as he will probably hear when he listens to the next recording. Rinse and repeat. If you just let him say what he thinks should be changed, then change what you think should be changed without telling him, it will probably sound better to him but then he will think what he said worked and the problem will just get worse.
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Tim McCulloch

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Re: Band makes judgement through a portable recorder.
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2012, 02:34:50 am »

A few years back we provided system and consoles for a country act who's star was dying of cancer, although that wasn't public knowledge at the time.  His mixerperson spent most of the show mixing on headphones so the recording would sound good on the stereo in the back lounge of the bus, as that was where the star would listen and evaluate the band, mix, and recording.

Previous shows with them sounded very good in the house.  This one... not.  A stream of ticket buyers made their way to FOH to complain, and I was appointed to intercept and deflect them.  It wasn't easy to explain the difference in audible performance; I finally pointed to the guy wearing headphones and said "He's aware of it and he's working on it.  Sorry."

To this day I don't know what, if anything, became of those recordings.  I hope they were used to put the singer's kids through college or establish a trust fund of some kind, otherwise all they did was deprive audiences of the fond memory of a star who died too soon.

As a BE, it's been my job to mix the act in a way that is consistent with the manner they wish to be heard.  While well placed recording mics can provide a useful reference, they are not a panacea for evaluating a mix particularly in small rooms.  Reflections, room modes and the resulting comb filters are more closely spaced, and moving a mic even a foot or 2 can radically change the sound it picks up.  Using a Zoom or similar recorder puts the evaluation very much at the mercy of location, location, location.  It's possible that some of what the band leader thinks are variations in mixing could be the result of the recorder being in a different location each time.  That's a tough thing to fight, and it's probable that the band leader would take any such explanation as an excuse for not following his directions.

Ultimately this is about 2 things, trust and power.

I have no advice for you, Gordon, other than to meet with the band leader and understand his issues with whatever he plays for you.  And then silently repeat to yourself "it's only a one off... it's only a one off."  The deposit to your Karma Account will be credited the next business day after the gig.

Have fun, good luck.

Tim Mc
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"Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake. Sing in the shower. Dance to the radio. Tell stories. Write a poem to a friend, even a lousy poem. Do it as well as you possible can. You will get an enormous reward. You will have created something."  - Kurt Vonnegut

Tim Perry

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Re: Band makes judgement through a portable recorder.
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2012, 03:47:13 pm »

Exactly Tim. 

While I have enjoyed some success in doing stereo band recording then having it mastered with appropriate delays to a board mix recording, is cannot will not and does not sound exactly the same as if you were there in the audience and listening.

The sound check recordings should be used by the band to evaluate their overall performance NOT minuscule differences in the way the sound guy of the day mixed.
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Rob Dellwood

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Re: Band makes judgement through a portable recorder.
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2012, 04:26:01 pm »

(I'm the Original Poster.)

I've considered mixing it my way and having the luxury of never being asked back. But that may not be the best outcome in the long run.

1.) It would make the referring sound company look bad to the "now angry" client because they recommended me based on my professionalism.
2.) My own reputation would suffer as bands in this area tend to pass on word-of-mouth info about sound companies. One bad apple (dissatisfied client) can spoil the bunch.

I didn't want to turn down the show either, because I am helping the other sound guy resolve a scheduling conflict. I am free that night and, who knows, I may need the favor returned some day.

As far as your reputation goes, the other side of that coin is, what happens if some other bands, the referring sound company, or other possible future clients show up to this gig?  They will hear an awful mix with buried vocals and guitars, etc. and never consider you again for future work, not to mention terrible 'word of mouth' for you.   Sorry, but I'd rather not mix a show under those circumstances.  Probably best to pass on this one, or only agree to do it if you have full control of the mix. 
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eric lenasbunt

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Band makes judgement through a portable recorder.
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2012, 11:26:24 pm »

Personally I would take the suggestions of the band, try to listen to a couple of tracks of what he thought sounded good in the past, then just do what you do. As someone else said, he doesn't walk the room. He is paying you so you want to honor his requests, but ultimately you are the sound professional, you have to do what makes it sound best.
   I would do the gig to the best of my ability, but this is not someone I would regularly work with. As a client you should either trust me to do good work or go with someone else. I am fine with you telling me what you like to hear, but micromanaging from a shotty source is an odd way to do that.
 I frequently have a singer or guitar player on wireless walk the room and make suggestions or comments, I welcome it as long as it is constructive. Throughout the show though I am constantly tweaking and changing as the band changes and moves through the night.
  Finally, if my work is being evaluated by a recording I would like some say over the placement of the recording. A simple sound check with phones should tell you if it is at least close to reality. I don't think it is fair to evaluate your work based on a recording if you cannot verify it is a legit recording.
 
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Band makes judgement through a portable recorder.
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2012, 11:26:24 pm »


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